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I ditched Docker for Podman

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Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#421

Post by jimjimwii »

miki123211 wrote: post #249

I've been dealing with setting up Podman for work over the last week or so, and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. If you use rootless Podman on a Redhat-derived distribution (which means Selinux), along with a non-root user in your container itself, you're in for a world of pain.

My anecdote: I've been using rootless podman on Ubuntu in production environments in multiple organizations (both startup and enterprise) for years without encountering a single issue related to podman itself.

I'm sure what you wrote here is true but i cant fathom how. Maybe its a rh specific issue? (Like how ubuntu breaks rootless bwrap by default)

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#422

Post by mmcnl »

matsemann wrote: post #34
Izmaki wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your companies need to worry about licenses. Docker ENGINE is free and open source. Docker DESKTOP is a software suite that requires you to purchase a license to use in a company. But Docker Engine, the core component which works on Linux, Mac and Windows through WSL2, that is completely and 1000% free to use.

If you've installed Docker on Windows you've most likely done that by using Docker Desktop, though.

I just follow the official Linux instructions on the Docker website. It just works.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#423

Post by chickensong »

rglover wrote: post #369
TrainedMonkey wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Containers and container orchestrators are complex tools. The constant cost of using them is pretty high compared to bash scripts. However the scale / maintenance factor is significantly lower, so for a 100 boxes simplicity of bash scripts might still win out over the containers. At 1000 machines it is highly likely that simplest and least maintenance overall solution will be using an orchestrator.

That's what I found out, though: the footprint doesn't matter. I did have to write a simple orchestration system, but it's literally just me provisioning a VPS, bootstrapping it with deps, and pulling the code/installing its dependencies. Short of service or hardware limits, this can work for an unlimited number of servers. I get the why most people think they need containers, but it really seems only suited for hype…

> it really seems only suited for hyper-complex (ironically, Google) deployments with thousands of developers pushing code simultaneously

There are many benefits to be had for individuals and small companies as well. The piece of mind that comes with immutable architecture is incredible.

While it's true that you can often get quite far with the old cowboy ways, particularly for competent solo devs or small teams, there's a point where it starts to unravel, and you don't need to be a hyper-complex mega-corp to see it happen. Once you stray from the happy path or have common business requirements related to operations and security, the old ways become a liability.

There are reasons ops people will accept the extra layers and complexity to enable container-based architecture. They're not thrilled to add more infrastructure, but it's better than the alternative.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#424

Post by rweichler »

drzaiusx11 wrote: post #372
rweichler wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, thanks. Looks much better than Docker/Podman. But seems to suffer from the same incentive issue. I think I'll stick with my raw QEMU setup, Lima seems like QEMU + batteries, but I already built the batteries.

Fun fact podman desktop is just a front end to Lima, or was last I checked

Yeah, seems like the power law is at play here. I made my test harness in 2020 so I didn't have a choice as Lima didn't exist back then. I should have waited a year. I'll certainly keep an eye on it

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#425

Post by xedrac »

t43562 wrote: post #21

To provide 1 contrary opinion to all the others saying they have a problem: Podman rocks for me! I find docker hard to use and full of pitfalls and podman isn't any worse. On the plus side, any company I work for doesn't have to worry about licences. Win win!

I vastly prefer Podman over Docker. No user/group fuss, no security concerns over a root process. No having to send data to a daemon.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#426

Post by 0_gravitas »

leoc wrote: post #357
0_gravitas wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fan of grammatical radicalism, the parens are appropriate if they're meant to convey a certain tone/voice in the writing, like a quick added-in-fragment after you're done saying the original title (as if you were giving a presentation).

It sounds as if what you want there is an em-dash.

Also valid--but I think both work.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#427

Post by sroerick »

ttul wrote: post #415

Back in 2001/2002, I was charged with building a WiFi hotspot box. I was a fan of OpenBSD and wanted to slim down our deployment, which was running on Python, to avoid having to copy a ton of unnecessary files to the destination systems. I also wanted to avoid dependency-hell. Naturally, I turned to `chroot` and the jails concept. My deployment code worked by running the software outside of the jail environment and m…

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend.

We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'.

While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had.

I genuinely don't understand what docker brings to the table. I mean, I get the value prop. But it's really not that hard to set up http on vanilla Ubuntu (or God forbid, OpenBSD) and not really have issues.

Is the reproducibility of docker really worth the added overhead of managing containers, docker compose, and running daemons on your devbox 24/7?

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#428

Post by qalmakka »

In my experience Podman is better but always ends up having some wonky bug (like, the other day, secrets didn't mount anymore during builds). Rootless, daemonless is great but it's basically bound to have some extra tinkering required compared to "a stupid daemon running as root"

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#429

Post by acdha »

jamra wrote: post #408
acdha wrote: post #321

I switched for local development work a couple of years back and can count on no fingers the number of times I thought about switching back. It let me stop thinking about the Docker Mac high CPU issue which was open for years with no progress, too.

Very nice. Macs have a new containers program. It’s open source on github but not ready for the current MacOS version. Might be an even better approach as it’s made by Apple.

Yeah, I’ll take a look after I upgrade but I haven’t had to spend time on Podman in years so there’s an upper bound for how much it can improve my life.

Re: I ditched Docker for Podman

#430

Post by Shog9 »

sroerick wrote: post #427
ttul wrote: post #415

Back in 2001/2002, I was charged with building a WiFi hotspot box. I was a fan of OpenBSD and wanted to slim down our deployment, which was running on Python, to avoid having to copy a ton of unnecessary files to the destination systems. I also wanted to avoid dependency-hell. Naturally, I turned to `chroot` and the jails concept. My deployment code worked by running the software outside of the jail environment and m…

The best CI/CD pipeline I ever used was my first freelance deployment using Django. I didn't have a clue what I was doing and had to phone a friend. We set up a git post receive hook which built static files and restarted httpd on a git receive. Deployment was just 'git push live master'. While I've used Docker a lot since then, that remains the single easiest deployment I've ever had. I genuinely don't understand wh…

Reproducibility? No.

Not having to regularly rebuild the whole dev environment because I need to work on one particular Python app once a quarter and its build chain reliably breaks other stuff? Priceless.

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