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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

nytimes.com

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Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#421

Post by biorach »

gottorf wrote: post #246
mplanchard wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve taken the train a lot in and around NYC, including a ton of subway trips. While the experience you’re describing is certainly not so rare as to be nonexistent, it’s also far from the norm. The large, large majority of subway rides I’ve taken (99% at least) were complete non-events. Perhaps you’re unlucky?

A few points. 1. A 1b. Of course, people get in car accidents all the time. However, rightly or wrongly, people feel more in control when they're driving compared to when they're using public transit (or similarly, taking a commercial flight), which makes them feel better about it. And there is some element of sense here: accidents do not occur evenly among the population, because some drivers are better and more ale…

> A how common is it for people to be thrown off the platform into an oncoming train in NY?

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#422

Post by Vinnl »

RhysU wrote: post #103
Vinnl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oof, that sucks. Glad that delivery driver wasn't in a car though! Could've ended much worse.

Yeah, just imagine. I did. For hours yesterday evening I imagined. Had a car killed my wife or unborn child, there would have been a legal trail and insurance. Had the e-bike killed my wife or unborn child, there was neither. I doubt I could ever find the killer of the unborn child if the baby died later due to injuries-- there's neither license nor registration on an e-bike. Pushing powered transportation into the u…

Yeah two things are true:

Reckless behaviour in traffic should be prevented, and

The same reckless behaviour is more dangerous when performed in a car. (People rarely actually get killed by an e-bike. It happens all the time with cars.)

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#423

Post by ben_w »

choeger wrote: post #345

I wonder if this will eventually lead to increased density and if that then leads to congested bike lanes. Will the cities of tomorrow regulate traffic between individual buildings? Make no mistake, bikes are much, much, better for urban centers than cars. But the overall problem isn't cars, it's individual traffic in densely populated areas. Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surr…

> Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surroundings ("15 minute city") and rarely, if ever, visit parts that are farther away individually.

I think you have causality backwards there — 15 minute cities are to make it possible to live a life where going further is rare by ensuring it is not necessary.

To quote the wikipedia page: "The 15-minute city (FMC[2] or 15mC[3]) is an urban planning concept in which most daily necessities and services, such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure can be easily reached by a 15-minute walk, bike ride, or public transit ride from any point in the city."

I was born and raised in a place that matches this description: Havant, on the south coast of the UK. 15 minutes from there is the entirety of not just Havant itself, but also most of the surrounding towns and villages including the majority of Portsmouth island. A lot of the people I grew up with, never moved out of the area — but they can all travel whenever they want to.

My dad's commute 20-30 years ago would have been something like this: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Havant,+UK/BAE+Systems+Broad...

I now live in Berlin, which is likewise. The "work" part is mostly dependent on the specific employer, and perhaps even if they're happy with WFH, because the travel time between any two randomly selected points of the city is about 45 minutes; but all the other stuff is replicated so much all around the city that I have five stand-alone supermarkets a building supplies store and two shopping malls, a couple of schools, five doctors (GP/Hausarzt), an entire hospital, some historical sites, a huge lake, a beach, several hotels, lots of woodland that's great for pleasant walks and cycling, and a few public parks within that travel time — and that despite being in one of the quiet backwater parts near the city limits.

As far as I can tell, any two places in Davis CA are within 15 minutes of each other, so for people who both live and work there, that too would be a "15 minute city".

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#424

Post by aynyc »

schwartzworld wrote: post #412
aynyc wrote: post #271

As a long time NYC resident who moved out during Covid but commute to work in the city. I definitely noticed less traffic on the streets and less noise. I see a lot of talk of other cities that don't have good public transportation. For example, between Flushing in Queens to 8th Ave in Brooklyn, there are privately run buses at affordable rate and get you there at half the time of trains. There are buses from a lot o…

Growing up in Jersey we called them jitneys. And no, they don’t have them in other cities.

Yes, the jitneys. There is the Hampton Jitneys which transport folks from NYC to the Hamptons during summer months. Those jersey buses are better than NJ Transit.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#425

Post by tilne »

blackguardx wrote: post #153
ars wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are only harmful in dense cities. They work just fine everywhere else. For example in small cities kids can play in the road without fear of cars. It's only in dense cities where they can not. Dense cities are also the only places where public transit works, so it kind of balances out. > This is just a small example. New York city is a small example? New York city is the largest city in the US, and pretty much t…

I live in a low density city and my neighbors are constantly complaining about how fast cars speed by and how it makes it unsafe for their kids. Dense cities are too congested for speeds to get that high. As an example, I felt safer biking in downtown San Francisco than I do on the country roads near me because people are constantly speeding and on their phones.

Part of this is the politicization of some of these issues. I previously lived on the outskirts of the suburbs and when I would bike out into the country I would receive a lot of hostility from dudes in big trucks that called me names as they drove by. Anecdotally, this seemed to happen way more frequently in the last two or three years.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#426

Post by Tade0 »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #352
choeger wrote: post #345

I wonder if this will eventually lead to increased density and if that then leads to congested bike lanes. Will the cities of tomorrow regulate traffic between individual buildings? Make no mistake, bikes are much, much, better for urban centers than cars. But the overall problem isn't cars, it's individual traffic in densely populated areas. Certain policy here in Europe simply assumes that people stay in their surr…

> And, of course, public transportation is often lacking quality compared to individual traffic. (Taking a bike across a bicycle road vs. getting into a crammed subway train in July, for instance.) Well, it doesn't have to be like that. Riding a bike in July is atrocious where I live, even with an electrical one. I'll end up drenched after my 20-minute commute, even though it's mostly flat. Cars didn't use to have AC…

People have been doing this, but the majority doesn't have this sort of flexibility[0]. Particularly any customer-facing job is going to require being there at a certain hour.

[0] Those who do typically could well be working remotely instead.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#427

Post by lazide »

epistasis wrote: post #137
timewizard wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have children or did you live alone?

As someone with children, I can not imagine the bliss of living in Manhattan and being able to do things without needing a car. Car-centric urban planning is hell with kids. You have to load them up into the car for any small trip. You can't walk or bike anywhere because cars make it so dangerous. My only regret about living in the US is this car hellscape that is so hard to avoid. It's mandated by law, not chosen by…

It depends on the age of the kids - if the kids can effectively self ambulate (8+ is usually old enough to have the stamina for a lengthy trip on public transit), then your options aren’t super limited by dealing with them.

Younger kids, you need to live where you can reach everything you’ll need to acceptable quality within walking distance or a limited number of subway stops, unless you really like dealing with a Stroller in the subway. Not always an easy feat.

Areas like that tend to be very expensive, and be very difficult to actually find spots. You then are susceptible to quality changes hurting your ‘investment’. People who can afford that can also afford one or more Nannies and other helpers.

In my experience, a lot of the skill set required is to be very competitive and have a lot of money to throw around, which requires a mindset that most would not call ‘cushy’ or easy going.

The ‘mandated by law’ bit is a bit of a misnomer. It’s structural due to a number of other market conditions, including available land (leading to lower population density, etc), which are impacted by laws, which also impact market conditions.

It’s an ouroboros, not an arrow.

South Asia has ~ 8x US pop density, Western Europe ~4x, and East Asia roughly 3x.

It’s no surprise it is how it is. The US is low density. The math generally works out differently.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#428

Post by lazide »

doctoboggan wrote: post #320
epistasis wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with children, I can not imagine the bliss of living in Manhattan and being able to do things without needing a car. Car-centric urban planning is hell with kids. You have to load them up into the car for any small trip. You can't walk or bike anywhere because cars make it so dangerous. My only regret about living in the US is this car hellscape that is so hard to avoid. It's mandated by law, not chosen by…

I live in Chicago and use a cargo ebike with a child seat for probably 90% of my trips. I can take my kid to school, go shopping, and go to my office on my bike, often quicker than if I were to take a car. Chicago has (recently?) put a lot of focus on their bike infrastructure (protected bike lanes, bike signals, bike only paths, etc) and it seems pretty widely used.

I’ve experienced Chicago winters.

Do you put the kid in that seat?!?

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#429

Post by Thorrez »

virtualritz wrote: post #399
aynyc wrote: post #271

As a long time NYC resident who moved out during Covid but commute to work in the city. I definitely noticed less traffic on the streets and less noise. I see a lot of talk of other cities that don't have good public transportation. For example, between Flushing in Queens to 8th Ave in Brooklyn, there are privately run buses at affordable rate and get you there at half the time of trains. There are buses from a lot o…

It's curious but unsurprising that privatization of public transport is considered an answer to congestion when existence of good (or great) public transport is the working answer one can find in many places around the world. When I visited NYC two years ago, I was blown away by how unbelievably bad public transport infrastructure is. The most flabbergasting thing was the absence of Metro ring lines around the center…

>IMHO the real problem is cars. The US still can't imagine itself without cars.

All of the US except NYC. In NYC 45.6% of households own a car. In Berlin it's 49%.

https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/u-s-cities-with-th...

https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/en/car-free-berlin-li.113268

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#430

Post by chgs »

pirate787 wrote: post #388
jampekka wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Travel of low-income people also declined significantly while high-income travel did not. So quite literally the London congestion pricing got the poor off the zones. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/03611981221138801

From the report: "the highest income earners contributed to more of the revenue than the lowest income earners, making the scheme progressive in the scale of its equity impact" It is quite likely that the lower income users are mostly retired people, and students, and they shouldn't be crowding the system at peak times unless willing to pay.

A retired millionaire living off savings will be counted as a “low income” person unlike than a working person on 50k paying 20k a year in rent.

I treat “income” with a healthy dose of salt

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