Live data from Hacker News

Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

421–430 of 835 posts

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#421
The article starts with a teenager in Portland, OR. If they had selected a teenager just south or north of the city, they would've had a very different perspective.

The value of having and maintaining a car is directly tied to whether you need it to perform the activities you enjoy. I enjoy taking my dog on hikes outside of NYC, so I pay the exorbitant cost of parking ($650 per month on the upper east side) to have a parking spot. If I didn't have a dog, I wouldn't have a car in the city. This is despite the fact that I personally love cars having owned a number of Japanese sports cars.

The focus of the article on climate change activism and urban planning is somewhat political, but I think it gets it right in the end: "Several studies...have concluded that driving habits that are formed in youth seem to persist...even into their 40s."

This is exactly it. I grew up in a relatively remote area of Southern California and became accustomed to driving-in for school, to see friends, to take my dog on hikes, etc. Those experienced have formed a positive association with "owning a car" despite the displeasure of driving around looking for parking.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#422
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife and I have friends who can't get their children to learn to drive despite cars being available to them with gas and maintenance paid by their parents.

Why do they want their children to learn to drive?

If they're American, then there is something like a 95%+ chance that they NEED to know how to drive.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#423

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

> The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car.

I think what you mean is that enough Americans are stupid enough with money to pay 47k$ for a car (or worse, a 15mg truck/jeep), plenty of $15-25k cars exist, 45k$ cars just look cheaper with 5-7 years financing.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it because of this intense fear of getting a job that was starting to emerge when I was young and seems to have really taken off since? Something odd, that I haven't seen many folks talk about, is that a lot of jobs are tacitly considered "beneath them" for Gen Z who grow up in middle class or higher affluence families. This is despite the fact that their parents don't think this, but the kids see a lifestyle on…

To be fair, no one wants to be the person who works the drive through at McDonald's. Back in the day it used to be good money for a high school kid, and maybe it arguably still is, but high school kids, particularly high performing ones, don't have time for part-time jobs that aren't contributing to a college resume. Let alone time to spend any money they make with friends.

I guess I could have expanded on my last sentence more and completed the thought. Of course nobody wants to be the person who works the drive through at McDonald's as their life's ambition. This type of job used to be seen as a stepping stone that provided you some spending money and an opportunity to meet people outside your parents social circle and school, a first taste of the working world, but wasn't a determinant of what your career ended up being. Gen Z though sees people /their age/ every day online who have become multi-millionaires on the Internet by being social media influencers or content creators, and they want to jump straight to the end where they're famous, rich, and respected (arguably).

My generation was never exposed to that, we were exposed to Tommy the lawyer who got his start working the stock room at the hardware store and now drives a Porsche. The type of "instant" fame and money that kids get exposed to now just wasn't even in the realm of possibility for my generation, except perhaps sports stars. Even though the number of people who "make it" vs those who try is vanishingly small, a lot of folks in Gen Z seem to think being an influencer or a similar role is the primary career path they want to try for, and unlike something like being a sports star, it's less limited by outside influences and requires less genetic talent. Anyone could, possibly, be an influencer, even though very few people actually will become one.

Now, taking that job is no longer seen as a stepping stone, it's seen as giving up and admitting to yourself and the world you won't be able to hack it online. It's truly remarkable if you observe high schoolers, girls especially, these days and how much of their life is spent online vs with those directly around them. Social media is not just entertainment, it's one of the most important things in their lives, and their presence there is seen as a determinant for their future. This is a very different social zeitgeist than my generation grew up with, and I'm a Millennial, grew up with Internet and computers, but prior to the dawn of social media.

This isn't an economic issue in that sense, then, it's a social issue, a rejection of the type of work that most people in the US started with when they were that age. A drive through worker at McDonald's makes nearly $37k/yr if they work full-time at the starting wage where I reside now. That's more than many professionals made when they started their careers when I was a teenager, and it's more than double what I made starting as a shelf-stocker /inflation-adjusted/. It's not that the job doesn't pay enough to attract people who are starting out, it's that those people see it as a serious social faux pas to be caught working that type of job, it's an admission and acceptance of failure, rather than an admirable place to begin.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#425
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife and I have friends who can't get their children to learn to drive despite cars being available to them with gas and maintenance paid by their parents.

Why do they want their children to learn to drive?

Probably so they don't have to personally drive them everywhere. My mother has a coworker who has a 22 year old daughter who is essentially unemployable because she can't drive and therefore can't get to work and can't afford to move to a place where walking/transit is an option. The family has a spare car.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#426
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars have always felt more restrictive to me. I don’t want to have to worry about parking or road access or fuel when I’m visiting somewhere.

I have never understood the anxiety americans have related to parking. (unless you’re going to a music festival etc) You literally just drive around for 5ish minutes and you find a spot. Ive lived in two major cities in america fwiw.

Lived in Berkeley for a year after graduation while commuting to South San Francisco and it was nearly impossible to find a street parking spot after getting home from work.

Just an anecdote to cancel out your anecdote.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the question that anyone that rejects cars would ask is "why do you choose to live 60km from your work?".

The average in the Netherlands is 20 kilometers if anyone is wondering. I think public transport is pretty good if you live in the Den Haag-Rotterdam-Amsterdam area. Which in America would be considered a single metro area. Something like 5 million people.

Ebikes also tend to change the equation. I live 37km from where I work. By bike its 1hr20 when its not too windy. By ebike its 1hr flat (ok, its a speed pedalec, requires a license). By car its 45 min. By train its 1hr10. Despite having the means to own a car I sold it a few years ago and never looked back. I rent one every few weeks I need one.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#428
post #322

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

My wife and I have friends who can't get their children to learn to drive despite cars being available to them with gas and maintenance paid by their parents.

I'm guessing your friends still chauffeur their kids around. If they stopped, I bet the kids would learn to drive, since their alternative to taking the wheel is to sit at home.

Now that it's become clear that services like lyft/uber are unsustainable at their current prices, the days of cheap taxis are numbered. Soon, unless you live in an urban center (or university), the only choices will be: drive yourself or walk.

I wish bikes were among the viable alternatives. But with their theft wildly out of control, pedal pushing just can't become a mainstream alternative to cars.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#429

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

As a "Generation X" near the Boomer boundary, I just can't stop being shocked by "average car is $47k". When I was a teen, my parents did rental investing, owned about a dozen properties, and had never paid more than $30k for a property. I'm a well-compensated tech worker, and have no shame in driving my 2004 Volvo that I bought used 16 years ago. Had a second car for a while. A 2005 Camry that I bought for $5000 in…

Most would love to, but the rent is too high and they need a car to be able to get to their job so they can tread water. Owning a primary home as a means of "lazy wealth generation" is only accessible to people with family money or career titles like "Software Engineer" and even then the homes are much lower standard than before for older people working the same job.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#430

It's been a decade-long journey but my wife and I finally got EU citizenship and are picking where to live (Utrecht and Freiburg are the frontrunners) specifically so our child can have a proper, independent childhood, and not the painfully lonely, infantilizing, ones we had in stroad-infested Californian suburbs. We're not young! But I applaud this development.

I have friends that live in Utrecht and it's great. The biggest adjustment for an American, I think, would be getting used to the smaller house sizes. It shifts how you see and value "stuff".

We spent two years living in a 50 square meter (~500 square feet) miserably cold and dark thatched cottage in a field in Ireland. That was, admittedly, unpleasant, but the places I see on Funda.nl look perfectly nice.

Incidentally, the author of this article showed us around Houten (9 minutes from Utrecht by train) and it was hard to contain my dumb grin just seeing kids - not much older than mine! - riding bikes _everywhere_ and just doing their thing. we visited for dinner and when her ~10 y.o. son said "I want to go ice skating" she said "OK, have fun!" and he just... hopped on his bike and went. No "ugg who's going to drive him" or "I don't want to have to pick him up late" etc. - an independence most kids can only dream of.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/may/16/welcome-cycle...

I actually would've thought the biggest adjustment would be cultural - the Dutch seem more reserved than Americans (who, to be fair, are known for being exceptionally outgoing).

Post reply on HN