Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#421

Post by skeeter2020 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

lampshades wrote: post #270

sam0x17 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unapologetically, yes, and I'd take it a step further. Often the online version is more fun and more interactive than a bunch of people uncomfortably thrust into the same room. There are things people suddenly become comfortable saying and doing that they wouldn't normally say or do in person. If you've grown up with gamer friends you know exactly what I'm talking about -- seeing someone's silly avatar light up when…

This is me. I find it much easier to converse online. I also am content staying in my house for years on end (as COVID has shown) and getting my social interaction from text on a computer screen. The internet has been my main source of social contact since I was 12 (at which point I just stopped going outside and spent all my time building websites), so I guess I've adapted to this way of living.

> so I guess I've adapted to this way of living.

Humans are almost infinitely adaptable, but if the vast majority of the world doesn't adopt a lifestyle similar to yours I fear you're really going to miss out a big part of what "living" includes. One large component: diversity, both in content and medium.

There's also the real and serious worry about "not going outside". this is terrible for your health and also has a huge corelation with poor diet and lack of exercise. You're so much more than your eyes, hands and brain.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#422

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

spullara wrote: post #394

lghh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you not think neuro-normativity is a real thing? Or do you think that neuro-divergent people will be worse off with a truly flexible work-from-home policy? I don't think they are requesting that the office cease to exist. It sounds like they…

There is no possible way for someone just out of college to actually understand the tradeoffs. Young people have little to no experience with building a career or what it entails.

We can just generalize this to "you don't know what you don't know". It's not like HN has any shortage of late career professionals peddling asinine takes on things they just don't have the subject matter experience in or have out of date info.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#423

Post by danaris » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #403

danaris wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Coddling ?" Social anxiety is a genuine mental illness, and a protected disability. This kind of arrogant, ableist crap is exactly why we need to destroy the cultural norm that everybody being in the office all the time is the only way to do work.

Social anxiety is as much of a mental illness as the fear leaving a bad impression on a date, fear of spiders or fear of doing poorly at an interview and enjoys the same kinds of legal protections. Which is none.

...You do know that social anxiety disorder is a genuine and recognized mental illness, right?

Or are you just one of those people who thinks that all mental illness is just a lack of sufficient gumption?

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#424

Post by NoraCodes » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:08 PM UTC

thingification wrote: post #351

danaris wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Coddling ?" Social anxiety is a genuine mental illness, and a protected disability. This kind of arrogant, ableist crap is exactly why we need to destroy the cultural norm that everybody being in the office all the time is the only way to do work.

It sounds like you use "protected" here with the intention of forming part of an argument -- presumably that social anxiety should be protected? Isn't that circular?

In the United States, 'protected" in this context means 'legally protected', in this case by the ADA. Employers are required to give reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#425

Post by skeeter2020 » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:08 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #408

sam0x17 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That said, I would say my nephew is significantly more social than most people in my generation were, because he is able to get in 5 hour calls with his friends every night, whereas that might happen only once every few weeks in my case, at best. He's learning and socializing way more than even my most social peers were able to growing up.

But that’s unfortunately a rather useless form of socialization, as most of his life interactions will be face to face. Job, romantic life, etc.

there's nothing wrong with online from my perspective, but there is when it's the only form of interaction. If you only spend time online with your close peer group you're never exposed to content far outside of the norm, and you don't get a diversity of communication mediums. You are literally handicapping your ability to communicate.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#426

Post by engineeringwoke » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #354

lolsal wrote: post #213

Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? There is no value in having lunches together with your colleagues? There is no value in body-language when communicating? I'm all for fully WFH policies, but I think it's a bit naive or dishonest to say that it's exactly the same work experience. I've been working remote for over a decade and wil…

> whiteboards Digital whiteboards are trivial to share, recover, modify and maintain. They're light-years beyond the limited physical variety. My team leans heavily on Miro, for instance. > Lunch Lunch time is a break. Not everyone wants to spend their break with their coworkers; but even for those that do, nothing is preventing you from having a conference call or video call over lunch. > Body language Not everyone…

> Not everyone understands or can engage in body language. Many people find it ancient inducing that their appearance and movements are under constant judgement. WFH is equalizing for them.

I find that people actually give away more with their body language over whatever conferencing software you may use. When you have all the portraits up on your screen, the little micro things are much easier to spot. I hope I didn't give you even more anxiety! We are just trying to see how people feel in order to manage the situation :)

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#427

Post by danaris » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

thingification wrote: post #351

danaris wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Coddling ?" Social anxiety is a genuine mental illness, and a protected disability. This kind of arrogant, ableist crap is exactly why we need to destroy the cultural norm that everybody being in the office all the time is the only way to do work.

It sounds like you use "protected" here with the intention of forming part of an argument -- presumably that social anxiety should be protected? Isn't that circular?

I'm using "protected" in the sense that it is a genuine disability, recognized by modern medicine and law, and as such anyone who suffers from it is entitled to the full protection of the ADA in the US.

It also means that anyone disparaging it like that in the workplace is guilty of discrimination against a disabled person, just as if they had called someone with an amputated leg a "worthless cripple", or mocked a hearing-impaired person for not being able to hear them when they whisper in a meeting.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#428

Post by dleslie » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

engineeringwoke wrote: post #426

dleslie wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whiteboards Digital whiteboards are trivial to share, recover, modify and maintain. They're light-years beyond the limited physical variety. My team leans heavily on Miro, for instance. > Lunch Lunch time is a break. Not everyone wants to spend their break with their coworkers; but even for those that do, nothing is preventing you from having a conference call or video call over lunch. > Body language Not everyone…

> Not everyone understands or can engage in body language. Many people find it ancient inducing that their appearance and movements are under constant judgement. WFH is equalizing for them. I find that people actually give away more with their body language over whatever conferencing software you may use. When you have all the portraits up on your screen, the little micro things are much easier to spot. I hope I didn…

I use a virtual avatar, so that doesn't bother me at all.

One of my coworkers is a slug with a nice hat; another is an alien.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#429

Post by Tiktaalik » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

jakenberg wrote: post #376

Apple is in a very tough spot. A $5bn headquarters sits relatively vacant with decreasing likelihood that there will be a return on investment. They ironically dug themselves into a hole by preaching how it would revolutionize the workplace while most feel this way about WFH. The paradigm shift seems obvious, especially when you account for the unrelenting rise in commercial real estate prices since Covid. Perhaps Ap…

Apple fucked themselves by embracing the status quo of silicon valley commuter car culture.

It's hard not to notice that so many of the complaints around return to work from SV area posters centre around commuting woes.

If SV cities were compact, walkable places where people could easily walk, bike and take transit to work returning to work wouldn't cause so much grief.

People are upset at the notion of a return to an hours long commute on the highway. If their commute was a 15 minute bike ride there'd be less opposition.

Apple built the wrong thing in the wrong place, and never became politically involved in trying to make life better for their employees.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#430

Post by wiradikusuma » Tue, May 03, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

All these arguments against work-from-office/hybrid, not that I disagree with, but hasn't that been the case since forever, pre-Covid? I mean, how did working people live last time? How about people whose job can't be done WFH, like a surgeon or postman?

I'm almost 40, and most of my work life has been at the office (like most people who have experienced work pre-Covid). I also spent ~5 years WFH when running my small startup, although now I'm back in the corporate. In my opinion, and from asking around, what many people want is "choice". Hybrid seems to be that.