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Firefox Was Always Enough

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Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#421

Post by fabrice_d »

zamadatix wrote: post #408
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Mozilla couldn’t get the mobile operators to sell a phone pre-loaded with FirefoxOS. And no one is going to buy a phone and reimage it. > I can't understand how Mozilla failed to execute on Firefox OS. This is naive. They did execute, and failed. That’s different than not executing at all. You can’t break into this segment without cooperation from the mobile phone operators... even in India and Southeast Asia wh…

So I guess the question is what made KaiOS able to succeed instead of fail if we're saying the problems FirefoxOS faced weren't execution? Was it simply different timing and now more operators are willing to partner?

The GP is mostly wrong. What killed FxOS in the market is the lack of official support for one extremely popular messaging application starting by W.

Then Mozilla's leadership didn't have the patience to wait for the right opportunity.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#422

Post by apozem »

krmboya wrote: post #313
throw_m239339 wrote: post #271

Mozilla doesn't have a real sustainable business model right now. FireFox OS could have provided such model, in fact, its successor kaios is doing very well and one can imagine that in the future, it will be the primary OS of half the mobile users on the planet. 'Feature phones' aren't dead. They provide a cheap alternative to touch phones, are usually more robust, and allowing them to run web apps instead of MIDP st…

I can't understand how Mozilla failed to execute on Firefox OS. From where I am at it was a massive opportunity for Mozilla and Web developers all round the world. They didn't have to take on Android and iOS directly, but may have gotten there eventually thru 'worse is better'. Imagine a web developer learning just a few APIs and being being able to customize their web app for smart TVs

Bill Gates explained why everybody but Google and Apple failed at mobile OSes:

> “In the software world, particularly for platforms, these are winner-take-all markets. So the greatest mistake ever is whatever mismanagement I engaged in that caused Microsoft not to be what Android is. That is, Android is the standard non-Apple phone platform. That was a natural thing for Microsoft to win. It really is winner take all. If you’re there with half as many apps or 90 percent as many apps, you’re on your way to complete doom. There’s room for exactly one non-Apple operating system."

https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/24/18715202/microsoft-bill-g...

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#423

Post by gilrain »

lordnaikon wrote: post #396
throw_m239339 wrote: post #271

Mozilla doesn't have a real sustainable business model right now. FireFox OS could have provided such model, in fact, its successor kaios is doing very well and one can imagine that in the future, it will be the primary OS of half the mobile users on the planet. 'Feature phones' aren't dead. They provide a cheap alternative to touch phones, are usually more robust, and allowing them to run web apps instead of MIDP st…

> Ditching Rust ... have i missed something?

They laid off their Rust and Servo developers.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#424

Post by AsyncAwait »

dleslie wrote: post #416
AsyncAwait wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opposite experience. For starters, Chromium doesn't even support video hardware decoding on Wayland properly.

That's unfair. Not even Emacs master works under Wayland. It's nowhere near a replacement for X.

> It's nowhere near a replacement for X.

It is for me and many others. Emacs works great under XWayland but Chromium HW video acceleration doesn't.

Emacs is a community project whereas Chromium has billions poured into it. Even Wine's getting Wayland support now and that ran under XWayland fine.

I don't think it's that unfair. Firefox on Linux is just better. Leaves some to be desired, sure, but a lot less than Chromium.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#425

Post by Brakenshire »

apozem wrote: post #422
krmboya wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't understand how Mozilla failed to execute on Firefox OS. From where I am at it was a massive opportunity for Mozilla and Web developers all round the world. They didn't have to take on Android and iOS directly, but may have gotten there eventually thru 'worse is better'. Imagine a web developer learning just a few APIs and being being able to customize their web app for smart TVs

Bill Gates explained why everybody but Google and Apple failed at mobile OSes: > “In the software world, particularly for platforms, these are winner-take-all markets. So the greatest mistake ever is whatever mismanagement I engaged in that caused Microsoft not to be what Android is. That is, Android is the standard non-Apple phone platform. That was a natural thing for Microsoft to win. It really is winner take all.…

Looking at wikipedia KaiOS seems to be the second mobile OS in India now, ahead of the iPhone. I don’t think those rules apply to a system which relies of web technologies, because you have such an enormous base of developers and development infrastructure.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#426

Post by dec0dedab0de »

lucideer wrote: post #146

It's curious that the 4 bullet points in the final section don't make any mention of open source (in fact, the article doesn't at all). I think Opera Software circa 2012 was doing all of the things we would hope for/expect from Mozilla & Firefox, and doing them much better than Mozilla could. Bar one: it was not open source. When I made the switch to Firefox in 2012, it was my belief that I would not have been forced…

I felt the same way in 2002, and although I like opensource the reason I dropped opera was because it came with built in ads. I switched to phoenix, then firebird, then firefox, and have not looked back. Except for a year or so where i primarily used konqueror, but that was only because I was using kde and it was built in.

The one cool feature i considered going back to opera for was built in torrent support, I really thought that would catch on.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#427

Post by Brakenshire »

takluyver wrote: post #262
liminal wrote: post #175

"Quantitative improvement" is table stakes that I worry have been abandoned with the jettisoning of the Servo team. "Technological pessimism" is a differentiating strategy, but ultimately dooms them to the small subset of users who understand and care about privacy at a deep level. "All encompassing" is a death march. All is infinite and Mozilla can't afford to implement everything hoping something turns out to be va…

They didn't abandon the technological effort that went into Rust & Servo - they just decided to bring it into Firefox piece by piece under the name 'Quantum' rather than launching a brand new browser with a different name. Although there was a marketing push with Firefox 57 when the new code started to land.

They abandoned the parallel layout engine which was arguably the most important bottleneck that Servo was attempting to tackle.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#428

Post by ygjb »

leeoniya wrote: post #399
wussboy wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This most common thing I write on HN is that I can’t believe I can’t pay to use Firefox. “How will we ever earn money here at Mozilla? All we have is this world class web browser that provides massive value to millions of people, but we refuse to directly monetize. Oh whatever will we do?”

also completely baffled by this. i'd have happily paid $100/yr if it went directly to firefox dev, not their other marketing shenanigns. they fired so much talent to focus on junk to drive revenue, that it's not something i can do anymore. very sad.

It's weird that when I tell my kids that when they want to help, but they won't help in the way that someone needs help, that they aren't actually helping, they understand it.

Mozilla has buckets of money, between the Corporation and the Foundation. They are separate, for good-ish reasons? But they are separate. If they start allowing customers or businesses to pay for Firefox, then they will have to provide an entirely different level of support. They will need a billing and support team that is beholden to those paying customers.

It will shift the focus that Firefox has on attracting and retaining users to attracting and retaining paying users.

It will mean they need to meet various warranty and regulatory requirements around the world, and potentially introduce new business risks and liabilities related to those requirements (e.g. non-compliance with specific regional legislation).

What you are asking for is to pay Mozilla for Firefox, and to get there you need a radical shift in the organization that supports and ships Firefox.

Or, you could do what the rest of folks who want to support Firefox do, and make a donation in the way that Mozilla is signalling is the best way to support Mozilla's mission and Firefox development.

If that isn't good enough for you, track down an OSS contributor to Firefox, and give them money. Direct action for the win!

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#429

Post by tleb_ »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #349
naniwaduni wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "what their techy friend recommended them" does a hell of a lot of work. It pretty much drove Firefox up to 30% market share once, remember.

I think it's why Firefox's market share is declining too. I don't recommend firefox for non-technical users anymore because of its relative complexity and incompatibility with the modern web when compared to Chrome.

What complexity are you referring to? And do you actually encounter issues while browsing using Firefox?

I am curious as I don't relate to this and recommend Firefox to friends and family.

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