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Firefox Was Always Enough

ianbicking.org

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Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#311

Post by krrrh »

mekoka wrote: post #135

It seems to me that Mozilla isn't just technologically pessimistic, but they also just lack vision for the future of the web and what roles the browser could play in it. Right now, the only reason we're talking about them is that Firefox is sitting atop a sizable share of a practically impenetrable market. Very successful companies are being started around much less of a product, but Mozilla seems to genuinely have n…

It’s like when Netscape Navigator became Netscape Communicator...

I mean, the whole thing was a disaster but at least we eventually ended up with Firefox out of the deal. Maybe the way out is the way through...

Edit: I enjoyed making this joke, but I think your ideas do have a lot of merit.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#312

Post by kubanczyk »

imbnwa wrote: post #94

Can anyone from/formerly of Mozilla explain why XUL had to die? When I was a kid it seemed utterly fascinating, I wonder now if we'd ever needed Electron if there was a modern XULRunner

> Waterfox Classic is continuing to support the long-standing XUL and XPCOM add-on capability that Firefox removed in version 57.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfox

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#313

Post by krmboya »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #271

Mozilla doesn't have a real sustainable business model right now. FireFox OS could have provided such model, in fact, its successor kaios is doing very well and one can imagine that in the future, it will be the primary OS of half the mobile users on the planet. 'Feature phones' aren't dead. They provide a cheap alternative to touch phones, are usually more robust, and allowing them to run web apps instead of MIDP st…

I can't understand how Mozilla failed to execute on Firefox OS.

From where I am at it was a massive opportunity for Mozilla and Web developers all round the world. They didn't have to take on Android and iOS directly, but may have gotten there eventually thru 'worse is better'.

Imagine a web developer learning just a few APIs and being being able to customize their web app for smart TVs

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#314

Post by vineyardmike »

deadbunny wrote: post #204
thrower123 wrote: post #68

I just don't know if 8% of desktop browser share is enough. It's creeping down into Opera range, and at that point, you're not a real option, you're a niche enthusiast brand.

How does market share equate to being a "real option"?

Unfortunately and unavoidably, all browsers won’t be 100% compatible so web devs need to do browser specific fixes. If the browser is sufficiently unpopular, it won’t get specific fixes. If it doesn’t get specific fixes, then it breaks websites and users are forced to try another browser. Eventually customers may just give up on the incompatible browser. Increasing the drop In market share, increasing the likelihood that a website doesn’t get specific fixes... [spiral]

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#315

Post by naniwaduni »

tleb_ wrote: post #310
wgjordan wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stipulate that 'Rust is going to yield a lot of result when it comes to security, memory safety and maintainability' (see parent comment), then a great many Internet users out there would choose Firefox if as a result of being written in Rust it's more secure, memory-safe (less crashing/bugs) and maintainable (more and better features).

Maybe in the Hacker News bubble but that's not "a great many Internet users". People either use what is pre-installed, what they are used to or what their techy friend recommended them.

That "what their techy friend recommended them" does a hell of a lot of work. It pretty much drove Firefox up to 30% market share once, remember.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#316

Post by aduitsis »

krmboya wrote: post #313
throw_m239339 wrote: post #271

Mozilla doesn't have a real sustainable business model right now. FireFox OS could have provided such model, in fact, its successor kaios is doing very well and one can imagine that in the future, it will be the primary OS of half the mobile users on the planet. 'Feature phones' aren't dead. They provide a cheap alternative to touch phones, are usually more robust, and allowing them to run web apps instead of MIDP st…

I can't understand how Mozilla failed to execute on Firefox OS. From where I am at it was a massive opportunity for Mozilla and Web developers all round the world. They didn't have to take on Android and iOS directly, but may have gotten there eventually thru 'worse is better'. Imagine a web developer learning just a few APIs and being being able to customize their web app for smart TVs

For some reason, yesterday's HN post "I can't keep up with React" came to mind :)

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#317

Post by jeffbee »

minikites wrote: post #93
terracatta wrote: post #26

I think Safari is going to have the market cornered on technology pessimism (aka privacy features) and browser performance per watt on macOS and iOS. Google is rapidly locking down enterprise by building in tight integrations with Google Workspace/G-Suite (see: context aware authentication). In 10 - 15 years the web should be better than it is today. The first step in their recovery is to convey what their vision of…

>In 10 - 15 years the web should be better than it is today. Is the web better now than it was in 2005-2010? I don't think it is and I don't see the trend arbitrarily reversing. Tons of regular people (and even tech-savvy folks who should know better) voluntarily use, love, and advocate for using a browser (and email service!) made by the modern equivalent of DoubleClick.

Were you actually alive in 2005-2010 or are you just guessing? Flash-based unskippable intros on fixed 640x480 centered viewports are the reality of the 2005 web, regardless of whatever nostalgia you suffer from.

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#318

Post by laumars »

terracatta wrote: post #26

I think Safari is going to have the market cornered on technology pessimism (aka privacy features) and browser performance per watt on macOS and iOS. Google is rapidly locking down enterprise by building in tight integrations with Google Workspace/G-Suite (see: context aware authentication). In 10 - 15 years the web should be better than it is today. The first step in their recovery is to convey what their vision of…

Firefox is a great deal more privacy focused than Safari when you start factoring in containers. I also wouldn’t trust Apple to stick to their privacy mission long term. It’s a marketing strategy that they seemingly care about at the moment but it’s supplementary to their core demographics so who’s to say they stick with this vision long term? I’m less concerned about the same happening with Firefox.

> In 10 - 15 years the web should be better than it is today.

That doesn’t align with the trends we’ve seen:

- tracking getting ever more sophisticated (like using WebRTC to probe open ports)

- large scale data mining sites like Facebook ignoring government regulations and getting away with it

- bloat getting worse. So many sites don’t even render without JS enabled. The fact that people have to run things like PiHole and browser plugins to filter out some of that crap is telling. And how long is that going to last? Some sites are now proxying that crap behind their own domain and DoH will prevent users from running PiHole

- The web slowly converting on a single rendering engine: Blink. It’s starting to feel a bit like the IE 5 days with everyone targeting the same browser. Just last week I couldn’t log into a pretty low tech website because their UA filtering said I was on an unsupported browser and greyed out the login button (I was on Firefox).

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#319

Post by freebuju »

coliveira wrote: post #244
etempleton wrote: post #2

I will make the same comment I made on another post regarding Firefox and Mozilla: a few tips from from no one: 1. Rewrite the Mozilla mission statement. I read that and have no idea what your organization does. Mission statements seem like corporate naval gazing, but if it is honest and well written it keeps everyone focused on what you are working towards. 2. Refocus on Firefox R&D and core technologies - Firefox n…

I think that Mozilla partnership with Google has made these goals difficult to achieve. Mozilla gets its money from Google, so it is implicitly part of the monopolist game played by them. What this means is that they're happy to be second in the browser development game, and are richly rewarded for doing so.

Firefox's relationship with Google is a Rubik's cube of its.

Mozilla takes way too much of Google's search money for them to stand up to Google. [0]

If only another investor could save Firefox from the clutches of Google's dependency.

[0]: https://hothardware.com/news/mozilla-firefox-google-doj-anti...

Re: Firefox Was Always Enough

#320

Post by BrendanEich »

sradman wrote: post #306
BrendanEich wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave has grown every month since early beta launch. It can be done, but Firefox has lost share almost every month for a long time. Google distributing and marketing Chrome definitely hurts Firefox, and yet Brave grows. A mystery to discuss another time.

> A mystery to discuss another time. The article discusses four strategies and I think your (assuming you are the Brendan Eich) strategy for Brave falls under 3. Technological pessimism, though it needs a better name. You are correct, growth for a desktop browser is possible, I misspoke, but I think the general browser market is a tough nut to crack. Good luck. Your (Brendan Eich's) past and present work is greatly a…

I reject Ian's categories. Brave is not only about "pessimism" and never was. Of course this makes us hard to categorize.

Main point is we grew and grow. Firefox shrinks, it's dying. I'm not saying that a bigger browser in decline would be easy to turn around, but Mozilla has not done right by Firefox.

I do agree with Ian that loss of Firefox founders hurt. We made brevet promotions and hires who did not hit the heights of hyatt, blake, joehewitt, and bengoodger. This is an oft-told tale, often requiring restart via a different codebase while maintaining the extant one.

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