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Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#421

Post by nodamage »

gamblor956 wrote: post #70
minhazm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment makes it sound it sound like Apple is breaking the law. Epic could have brought on this lawsuit while still complying with the App Store rules, in fact the judge suggested they do that so their users aren't impacted. They wouldn't be getting kicked off right now and the Sign-in with Apple button wouldn't be getting disabled. They chose to break the app store rules, which they did agreed to, AND they also…

in fact the judge suggested they do that so their users aren't impacted. In fact, the judge did not suggest they do so because absent economic harm Epic had no standing to sue until Apple retaliated. The judge simply pointed out that they couldn't provide injunctive relief forcing Apple to allow Epic to have its own store before the case was decided on the merits. (Judges rarely grant injunctive relief to change the…

I am amazed that this obviously false claim has been repeated a dozen times in this thread. Epic already has suffered economic harm based on the $300 million in Fortnite IAP fees Apple has previously collected. They already had standing to sue to get those fees back. They did not need to do anything else.

> In fact, the judge did not suggest they do so because absent economic harm Epic had no standing to sue until Apple retaliated.

Yes, she did. She literally suggested the sensible way to proceed was to comply with the agreement while the lawsuit went on.

Epic Games remains free to maintain its agreements with Apple in breach status as this litigation continues, but as the Seventh Circuit recognized in Second City Music, “[t]he sensible way to proceed is for [Epic to comply with the agreements and guidelines] and continue to operate while it builds a record.” Id. “Any injury that [Epic Games] incurs by following a different course is of its own choosing.” Id.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.364265... (Page 5)

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#422

Post by cavanasm »

sjy wrote: post #338
cavanasm wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There hasn't been a hearing on an injunction yet, that happens later this month. The hearing that HAS happened was on a temporary restraining order, which was to keep Apple from doing anything UNTIL AFTER the injunction hearing. The difference is important, the temporary restraining order's effects are only limited to that August-September time window, and the hearing itself had limited argument, and very little prep…

> a similar anti-trust suit filed by an Apple user was thrown out without a trial on grounds that the customer was not able to sufficiently demonstrate Apple's practices harmed them Which case is this? Epic’s complaint [1] only mentions the word “standing” once and seeks broad restraints on Apple’s “conduct” that go beyond the enforcement of one TOS clause. I can see why strategically, Epic thought it was best to bui…

Apple Inc vs Pepper. It was filed very early in iOS's life, got thrown out in 2013 after years of wrangling (by this same judge?), I didn't realize this part, but it went all the way up to SCOTUS in 2019 after getting thrown out, where they said the district court was wrong to dismiss the case, and it looks like it is actually still technically ongoing since that Supreme Court ruling, but I have no idea what the status is because I can't find reporting on it past the SCOTUS ruling. So yeah, there appears to be an open question of whether Epic could have filed suit without the theatrics.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#423

Post by dilap »

Razengan wrote: post #378
fxtentacle wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. After Apple kicked Fortnite from the iOS store, there was an outcry of people who had previously spent money on it through Apple's in-app purchases and now wanted a refund. Some of those users switched to playing Fortnite on a laptop or Android phone instead, but of course they were still using Sign in with Apple if they had origi…

> I can't help but think that the whole thing is playing out exactly like Epic had hoped. It seems to be hurting them more than Apple: Epic Games Asks Court to Allow Fortnite Back on the App Store: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/05/epic-injuction-fortnite... > Meanwhile, Epic now has a very good reason to collect a working email address from every past iOS customer One of the biggest reason I love using Sign-In Wi…

It's super crappy, though, to screw users as collateral damage in an attempt to spite Epic.

I could see disabling new signups, but breaking existing users...geeze.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#424

Post by abawany »

rootsudo wrote: post #410
bryan_w wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Epic now has a very good reason to collect a working email address from every past iOS customer Not just epic but any business really that obtains most of their customer base through sign in with apple. Losing your entire customer base because of making apple mad is a risk that most businesses will now be unwilling to take.

Does using Apple Sign in not share your email address/identity?

I believe it generates a unique/obfuscated email address that is provided to the provider but their messages to that address arrive at your real icloud address. Edit0: reference https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210426

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#425

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #389
DennisAleynikov wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are a few nerds here and there that actually prefer the weird Unix/BSD that Mac OS X is based on but theres no way Linus Torvalds is using the normie focused MacOS Big Sur and the current environment Apple used to support freedom in programming and use of the computer. That has not been the case anytime recently, they've taken the prison system of iOS and slowly implemented it on 'macOS'

> there are a few nerds here and there that actually prefer the weird Unix/BSD that Mac OS X is based on macOS as well as Apple hardware is not just used by "a few nerds here and there". It's used by a very good chunk of devs in any conference (be it Apple, Rails, JS, Python, Data science, whatever), and by a majority of speakers in said conferences (so tons of top tier "nerds" - your words). > there are a few nerds…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#426

Post by FractalParadigm »

viraptor wrote: post #383
FractalParadigm wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple doesn't give a shit about innovation when they are making money hand over fist It's crazy but I didn't even notice this paradigm shift until they announced their credit card. Apple used to be the company to push boundaries and revolutionize computing in some way every few years. The last real "innovation" I feel Apple has come up with was the Retina display, pushing OEMs everywhere towards higher pixel counts…

> to USB and WiFi brought to the mainstream Not sure what you mean here. USB was used everywhere and around the time iPhone launched, microusb was used by a large portion of new phones. Apple is pretty much the only actively USB-avoiding company left. They still use a proprietary connection for their devices. They certainly sped up the wifi on mobile trend, but I would argue with bringing it to the mainstream.

It was meant as a separate statement to the iPod/iPhone one, separate innovations that (I would argue) Apple majorly popularized or brought to the mainstream. The iMac G3 and PowerBook/iBook G3 brought USB and WiFi (Airport) to the masses, respectively. The iMac G3 famously came with FireWire and USB as it's only peripheral connections, while the iBook was the first consumer laptop period that included WiFi standard, and IIRC Apple released one of the first consumer WiFi routers as well.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#427

Post by mlindner »

aboringusername wrote: post #6

This is something many people feared might happen, and now, it's become a reality: Apple can, at will, remove your entire foundation or business, your (their) customers and your existence on iOS is just gone. Apple is a company that needs to be brought down a peg or two, it's far too 'valuable' in terms of its market worth, and needs a huge kick up the ass as Microsoft once had to show them some respect. And the EU w…

Sorry, but Epic Games is the horrible company here. Apple is simply protecting customers from Epic Games horrible business practices.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#428

Post by mlindner »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #313
KMnO4 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like Apple's retaliation was prompted by Epic's lawsuit -- not by the (trivial) breach of ToS. The precedence Apple wants to set is: break ToS, get kicked off the store. Break ToS and then try to take Apple to court, get kicked off the platform . It's pretty obvious that Fortnite is just the pawn that Epic used to wage war. This is obvious to Apple too, hence their counterclaim for punitive damages.

Yes, and that is the textbook definition of retaliation. This is the same concept as tenant rights. Just because you are renting someone's house doesn't give them complete control over your life. A landlord can't randomly barge into your house (even if technically belongs to them) and sell your stuff. And before someone comments "But there is no tenancy here", well it's an analogy and it's the same idea. The reason t…

Tenant rights is completely different. That's regarding someone's life not someone giant corporations competition with a similar product.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#429

Post by nodamage »

tomp wrote: post #344
schmichael wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish Mozilla would join them by publishing a Firefox for iOS with their own renderer and Javascript (which they have been prevented from doing). Get booted and join the lawsuit. That's the activist Mozilla I can get behind.

How is Mozilla to do that? AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system. Mozilla can't just push a rendering & JavaScript engine "over the air".

> AFAIK Epic did their move by pushing "legal" iOS code, then doing an over-the-air update of adding non-Apple payment system.

No, the code was hidden in the app itself, just disabled via server-side flag. After the app was approved they then flipped the flag to enable it.

Source: Epic admits this in their legal filings.

Re: Apple Disabling 'Sign in with Apple' for Epic Games on September 11

#430

Post by mantap »

moksly wrote: post #385
aclelland wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also shows that Apple really don't care about their customers and would rather stick it to Epic than continue to support the people who choose to use their login system. If Apple wanted to show some goodwill towards the end users who were caught up in this mess they'd continue to allow them to log in or provide a migration path. I wonder if this will be used against Apple in the future since it's clearly hurting p…

I think you’re vastly underrating the seriousness in which a company like Apple would treat this matter. They aren’t a petty child or a bully. They’re a company, and their market research likely show them that the key advantage they have over Android is their closed, easy to use and secure ecosystem. If Epic succeeds in breaking that, they’ll lose a lot more than 30% of the 20 ish millions a month that Epic is curren…

Apple prevents people who paid $10000s for their top-of-the-line computer, from using an equally top-of-the-line GPU from Nvidia, because ~10 years ago some Nvidia laptop GPUs had problems and Apple is obsessive about punishing them.

Apple does act like a petty child, and a rather obnoxious one at that. They are the worst kind of company, one that considers it is doing you a favour by allowing you to be their customer.

Sent from my iPhone.

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