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A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

theatlantic.com

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Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#421

Post by DoreenMichele »

vaidhy wrote: post #359
andreilys wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts?" I don't see value in graduating with 6 figure debt for those degrees. In the words of Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting: “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.”

I do not believe in this over-simplification. However, the point about going to debt for those degrees is a question specific to US at this point in time. We should talk about free college education or heavily subsidized one, but this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist. However, happiest countries in the world seems to be mostly social democratic[1] and for one, if possibl…

On a side note, I have a feeling that US prefers a "dog eat dog world" because everyone here thinks they will be the ones doing the eating and caring for the underdog is a sign of weakness/waste of resources.

The default or dominant culture in America is upper class cis het white male. Historically, yes, those people could pretty count on being the ones doing the eating.

Women and people of color were the ones taking up many other roles and it was possible to sometimes care about them -- or just treat them like absolute crap while benefiting from a relationship to them because they had little to no recourse -- without that impinging on the professional part of your life where, by default, killer instinct could rule the day.

I think part of what is messing things up is the rise in human rights for women and people of color. This is disrupting these historical patterns which have something of a tendency to carry forward.

We are largely failing to ask "So, just what kinds of patterns actually work for a world in which we assume all adults have similar rights and opportunities?" Many people are quite oblivious to the many layers of baked in assumptions about, for example, how work gets organized and how we provide benefits to the people.

It is largely invisible the degree to which we assume a man is doing certain kinds of work and there is probably a woman at home doing the cooking and cleaning and other "women's work." And I tend to get a lot of flak anytime I try to comment on it because I'm a woman and HN is overwhelmingly male, so people (seem to) think I'm some man-hating, feminazi who is intentionally shit-stirring or something and tend to not think I'm someone who has actively studied the space because of the ways it has negatively impacted my life, so I'm somewhat knowledgeable about such topics.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#423

Post by jrumbut »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #371
vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

The arts (TV, movies, music, and related fields such as tourism, architecture, design, advertising) are massive industries in the United States. Then of course there are the soft power benefits of having much of the world grow up staring at America at the movies, singing along to American music, wearing blue jeans, etc. Same goes for many other developed economies.

I admit I am someone who appreciates art for its own sake, but after years spent eroding the post-WW2 edge in science and manufacturing, creative endeavors are part of what sustains us materially as well as the intangible ways.

You need a bunch of artists for one Breaking Bad, the same way you need many startups for one Facebook or many scientists for one Einstein.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#424

Post by angrais »

UK-Al05 wrote: post #417
KMag wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only free if you forget opportunity cost. Lots of people working behind cash registers with 4 year degrees would have been much happier going to trade schools and being well on their way to being small business owners/co-owners. There's no doubt that not having crippling debt is much better than having crippling debt. However, we have this cultural idea that being on the road to taking partial owneship of a smal…

Does the average tradesman have their own business though? I think we like to compare mediocre corporate drones to the most successful tradesman.

Yes, they do. Typically after a few years working.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#425

Post by throw7 »

If you want a _good_ life, DO something you are GOOD at.

That really is all there is to it. People recognize value and, guess what, they'll gladly _pay_ you for your skill.

Happiness is up to you. The only thing I'd send your way to think about: "In order to get love, you have to give love."

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#426

Post by lozaning »

simplify wrote: post #373
bobbydroptables wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Like rent an apartment? Have a car to get to work? Then you rent an apartment or buy a car. Are you implying you can't do this after bankruptcy? It's much easier to do these with a bankruptcy on your "record" than with a $1000 monthly payment.

I'm implying that these things are affected by your credit score.

Cash is King

If you've got an 800 score and no money, no one will give you a loan. If you've got a trash credit score, but an extra $1000 that isn't going to loans, then you can 'afford' to get fleeced on 36% 72 month auto loans for 7 years until your credit is rebuilt.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#427

Post by barry-cotter »

vaidhy wrote: post #401
29athrowaway wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not need to go to a music conservatory to be a musician. And among the musicians with the highest net worth, few have formal training. Take for example, Metallica. To my knowledge, none of them have formal training, yet each member has a net worth of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Yes, but the vast majority of musicians do have formal coaching and training. A net worth is not an indication of musical talent and should not be used as one.

> Yes, but the vast majority of musicians do have formal coaching and training.

I really doubt the majority of musicians trained at a conservatory or similar institution exist is what the person you’re responding to said. Having gotten some amount of lessons at some point is not the same as spending even three months at a conservatory.

> A net worth is not an indication of musical talent and should not be used as one.

But it is an indication of how much the public values your work, a very noisy one, to be sure, but by far the most democratic measure if that’s something you care about.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#428

Post by diebeforei485 »

jrumbut wrote: post #423
diebeforei485 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

The arts (TV, movies, music, and related fields such as tourism, architecture, design, advertising) are massive industries in the United States. Then of course there are the soft power benefits of having much of the world grow up staring at America at the movies, singing along to American music, wearing blue jeans, etc. Same goes for many other developed economies. I admit I am someone who appreciates art for its own…

The fact that a relatively small percentage of worldwide artists have a large chunk of the worldwide audience only furthers my point: mass arts are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists.

But my point still stands: How many of these artists got art degrees? Rihanna didn't, Kanye dropped out early, Billie Eilish and Taylor Swift didn't go to college. Michael Jackson didn't go to college. They do have support staff and some of them may have gone to art school, but there are plenty more folks with art degrees who are struggling.

There are better ways to support the arts than to fund arts degrees. UBI is one example.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#429

Post by rayiner »

triceratops wrote: post #415
rayiner wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re overlooking that the non-white population is much younger (the median white person is 42, the median Hispanic person is 28) and they are driving all population growth in the country. (The absolute number of non-hispanic whites started declining in 2010). Given those changing demographics, when guilds act to limit membership (as you acknowledge they do) the bulk of those excluded are going to be non-whites. And…

I proposed guild discrimination laws similar to employment discrimination laws, making it illegal for guilds to exclude on the basis of protected categories.

That wouldn’t help. In a country where the non-white population is rapidly growing and the white population is shrinking, and also is trying to catch up in terms of education and income, the population of guild members will be whiter than the population of potential new members. Limiting supply (favoring existing members over potential new members) will in practice disadvantage non-whites.

There was a very clear example of this recently in Chicago. Lori Lightfoot explained that she wouldn’t pursue police funding cuts because under the union contracts, cuts would have to be made from newer employees first. (Last in First out.) That would mean that 2/3 of the cuts would be Black and Hispanic officers, even though less than half of the overall force is Black and Hispanic.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#430

Post by Wowfunhappy »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #371
vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

> The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists.

I'm unreasonably picky and I can never find find enough books / games / tv shows / etc that I actually like. They exist for sure, but I burn through them too quickly, and then I'm left without anything to read/play/watch for a while.

So if we could have ten times as many TV shows to pick from, that would be great as far as I'm concerned. Whether the economics exist to support that is another question of course, and likely the more relevant one.

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