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A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

theatlantic.com

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Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#411

Post by grandmczeb »

vaidhy wrote: post #359
andreilys wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts?" I don't see value in graduating with 6 figure debt for those degrees. In the words of Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting: “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.”

I do not believe in this over-simplification. However, the point about going to debt for those degrees is a question specific to US at this point in time. We should talk about free college education or heavily subsidized one, but this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist. However, happiest countries in the world seems to be mostly social democratic[1] and for one, if possibl…

> this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist.

This is a caricature. It's not much different than saying people are for free college because they're lazy and don't want to work for a living.

> I have a feeling that US prefers a "dog eat dog world" because everyone here thinks they will be the ones doing the eating and caring for the underdog is a sign of weakness/waste of resources.

I have a feeling the reason you think this way is because you haven't made a serious effort to empathize with the people who disagree with you.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#412

Post by imgabe »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #77
imgabe wrote: post #38

Nothing is a guarantee of a good life. It seems like people think you should be able to just check a few boxes, then slot into a 9-5 and have everything taken care of for you for the rest of your life. Well, it doesn't work like that. Even after college you're still going to have to plan and think and take action to make things happen for you. It's not just all going to fall into your lap because you took a few class…

>It seems like people think you should be able to just check a few boxes, then slot into a 9-5 and have everything taken care of for you for the rest of your life. If you're not particularly ambitious, yes. The whole system runs on ordinary people's labor, and it's an authoritarian system: when you go to work, you're following orders . It shouldn't be on you to take constant initiative and exercise your intelligence…

First, the system doesn't belong to any one person. Not even the owner of a company. They own one company. They don't own capitalism itself.

And yes, you are always free to get rid of any one company's system and start your own system (i.e. company). What people find when they do this is that with freedom comes a lot of responsibility.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#413

Post by lhorie »

vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

If we're talking about society as an utilitarian construct, one doesn't necessarily see value in another's intellectual satisfaction as much as one does see value from being able to acquire food, plumbing services, etc. A degree is a commitment of 5-10% of a person's life, and it's meant to support the person's ability to contribute to said society for much of their adult life.

Is there value in having _someone_ have expertise in classical music? Sure. Is there value in everyone in the world pursuing expertise in arts at the expense of society's ability to produce food? Obviously no.

The idea that everyone should have equal opportunities to pursue the arts doesn't work on a fundamental level because the distribution of what needs to be done vs what are "desirable" occupations do not match in reality - even when we account for automation. Put another way, everyone wants to be the rich instagrammer posting cocktail pics, not the person serving said drinks at minimum wage.

So, is it really a surprise that even though more people have access to arts degrees nowadays, that they are unable to realistically sustain themselves on the back of these degrees?

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#414

Post by zdragnar »

garbagetime wrote: post #391
diebeforei485 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

>orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals You've chosen the arts which require massive organisation and expense. What about painters, singer-songwriters, writers, poets, etc.?

What about being a painter, singer, writer or poet requires a four year degree? In some cases (in particular, the visual arts) conventional wisdom seems to be that going to school for such a thing narrows artistic vision and creativity into a box.

Actually organizing events requires an entirely different skill set- while having an appreciation for the arts absolutely can help pull off a successful event, it is by no means a requirement.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#415

Post by triceratops »

rayiner wrote: post #402
triceratops wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guilds reflect the societies they are in. Society had more bigotry in the past, and so did the various institutions within it. Also, it's weird that you call out guilds for being discriminatory but then give an example of discrimination in employment. We have fair employment laws to prevent this type of behavior and arguably could have "fair guild membership" laws if it became a problem. It's fair to argue against gu…

You’re overlooking that the non-white population is much younger (the median white person is 42, the median Hispanic person is 28) and they are driving all population growth in the country. (The absolute number of non-hispanic whites started declining in 2010). Given those changing demographics, when guilds act to limit membership (as you acknowledge they do) the bulk of those excluded are going to be non-whites. And…

I proposed guild discrimination laws similar to employment discrimination laws, making it illegal for guilds to exclude on the basis of protected categories.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#416

Post by rbanffy »

simonsarris wrote: post #215
DiffEq wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What made those zip codes good?

This is one of the most underrated questions, despite how often it is asked, and it's a shame how many truly flip answers it gets whenever someone asks it.

Wealthier parents will buy homes there and donate/invest in local schools, which will afford a better education to their kids that, along with better networking, will increase the chances of being financially successful of their kids.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#417

Post by UK-Al05 »

KMag wrote: post #341
908B64B197 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is also quite common for students to over-estimate the value of a no-name institution. I've found this to be moreso the case in the two European countries I've lived in for an extended period of time (France & England). Tuition in France is basically free from what I understood. Even if students over-evaluate the value of the school, the fact that it's free still makes it attractive. And I think that some univer…

It's only free if you forget opportunity cost. Lots of people working behind cash registers with 4 year degrees would have been much happier going to trade schools and being well on their way to being small business owners/co-owners. There's no doubt that not having crippling debt is much better than having crippling debt. However, we have this cultural idea that being on the road to taking partial owneship of a smal…

Does the average tradesman have their own business though? I think we like to compare mediocre corporate drones to the most successful tradesman.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#418

Post by eezurr »

vaidhy wrote: post #359
andreilys wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts?" I don't see value in graduating with 6 figure debt for those degrees. In the words of Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting: “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.”

I do not believe in this over-simplification. However, the point about going to debt for those degrees is a question specific to US at this point in time. We should talk about free college education or heavily subsidized one, but this same group here has been heavily against these ideas because they are socialist. However, happiest countries in the world seems to be mostly social democratic[1] and for one, if possibl…

hmm[0]

If I was the leader of this country, I'd see placing market pressure on the citizens would coerce them to yield to market efficiency. That is to say, if people have to pay for college, it would push more people towards degrees that run the economic/productive component of this engine (due to the higher salaries from the demand). The wealth generated from this omni-cultural push will benefit the country, both it's leaders and it's citizens. Deep down in the depths of the human mind is a little chunk of the brain that is terrified of death and inferiority. This goop collectively bubbles up to the surface sometimes, taking the form of war.

If this is one of the prices to pay to live in a country that no other country in the world could conquer, i'd say it's worth it. Human history is full of evidence that reality.

[0]This comment is just a one dimensional thought experiment

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#419

Post by bezmenov »

pixelbash wrote: post #394
diebeforei485 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arts (orchestra/symphony, opera/musicals, etc) are a luxury good. There is a small, niche market for these things, mostly centered around certain cities - so we can only have so many artists. The mass arts that the masses can afford to consume (TV, streaming music, and movies) are by definition based on popularity, so we can only have so many artists. I don't know why we fund so many people's arts degrees. We nee…

This is a viewpoint centered around seeing art as a commodity. To me that's like saying we only need so many scientists. Is perceived value the best metric?

There is a near-infinite amount of value to be provided by science. Art is inherently zero-sum.

Re: A College Degree Is No Guarantee of a Good Life

#420

Post by golemiprague »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #389
vaidhy wrote: post #339

I have been reading through the comments and I am very curious about a few things - 1. What "bullshit" degrees people are talking about? Are they the liberal arts studies? If so, as a society do we not see value in the fine arts? Expertise in music, language, anthropology, history, etc do not necessarily lead to a well-paying job.. but they give intellectually satisfaction in and of itself. 2. IMHO, the pay you are l…

I think it's interesting how few read to the end. The author is a "professor of the practice of public leadership." At a business school. It's worth asking what a "professor of the practice of public leadership" is, because - with my combined liberal arts and STEM academic background - I honestly have no idea. Which piques my curiosity, because this piece reads like a parable. Second son not interested in college? Ne…

Give me a break, most liberal arts students don't have any more "critical thinking" than anybody else. They also don't have much knowledge about liberal arts. They just do it so they can have the title "college graduate" which will open the doors for them for certain jobs in the corporate world, mainly secretarial in nature which they could have done with a 3 months internship.

As a society I believe we should put some of our common resources into teaching young people a profession and into maintaining and developing our knowledge in all possible subjects, whether scientific or arts or whatever.

But it needs to be more targeted, if someone studying a profession they should study a profession and if someone want to study for the sake of academic advancement they should do it but we shouldn't confuse the two things and the system as is is just a very inefficient, prolonged and expensive job entry evaluation test.

Armies around the world are doing the same thing in couple of basic tests and then teach those profession in a 3 months course. You don't need a liberal arts degree to do any job in the HR department and those, usually women, who study it don't contribute any advancement to the liberal arts anyways.

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