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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

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421–430 of 568 posts

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe it is unethical to work on weapons technology any more than I believe it is unethical to be member of the armed forces. We live in a world with bad actors, so some amount of work on defense is necessary for survival. However, I also believe you are responsible for the consequences of the technology you create. If you decide to work on smart bombs and because of a bad government those end up killing in…

> However, I also believe you are responsible for the consequences of the technology you create. I agree with this to an extent, but at the same time, technologies you develop can go well beyond what you intended them to be. Do you think Ritchie knew C would be used the way it is today? It is used in UAVs, smart missiles, and more. Building faster algorithms also means faster weapons. Everyone working at SpaceX is di…

It's easy to extend this further.

Engaging in any kind of commerce (i.e. beyond growing food for yourself and your family) means paying taxes, which means funding governments and armies.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#422
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former Apple employee, it's gutsy for you to post this, or anything, certainly on a controversial topic. You don't work for the kind of employer that values someone sticking their head out and saying ... anything. They want to control the message, and saying anything may be worse for both you, and for Apple, than saying nothing. Just be careful. Apple's got the people to manage this PR situation.

As someone else commented, this is one of the reasons why trusting companies like Apple is a bad idea. Even if employees had real concerns about a technology, or wanted to discuss the pros/cons, we would never hear about it. It should be obvious why a strong focus on secrecy and "controlling the message" breeds distrust.

The appropriate venue to discuss concerns with technology in a forum that will actually impact it is rarely a public message board.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not compare apple to a public institution. What apple does is in the interest of the shareholders and nothing else.

Perhaps the institutional shareholders have Apple holdings precisely because their privacy-centric practices increase their stability, independence, and profit—without having to sell out their customers.

[deleted]

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#424
post #9

Will be interesting to see if they can ban Indian govt. app[1] which needs full location access(clarified)[3]. A lot of people like this app(including me) but also know government does not have good track record in securing private data. Previously Apple were made to bend their rules when India threatened to ban Apple devices if they don't allow TRAI Do Not Disturb app in 2018.[2] [1] https://play.google.com/store/ap…

Apple made a new SMS reporting API, just so the app doesn't get permissions for reading all SMS, as they wanted.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#425

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

> ...but I feel like as a society we’ve swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge.

I understand and completely empathize with your concern. I do think this lack of trust is and is going to cause very serious problems. However, this mistrust has been earned.

The incentives of large companies seem to be odds with what many people consider good for themselves or their communities.

We like to tell ourselves that a company’s goals must align with a community’s concerns or another company will come along and replace them. But this doesn’t seem to happen in reality and if it does, it can take decades which by that time, the damage is already done. Particularly if the company is above a certain size or retain a certain percent of their market. At scale companies can and regularly do act almost antagonistic towards their customers and the communities in which they live.

During some college research I found an older article from years ago and while I’ve looked repeatedly, I haven’t been able to find it again (If anyone knows it, please please let me know.) I’m running off of memory here so forgive me for the weak description. The author had researched and discovered how most very large companies used to require that every move they made would place a very high value on how it would impact their local community first and then place a high value on how the decision would impact their wider customer’s communities. These considerations played a massive role in whether or not they would move forward with the idea. If I’m remembering correctly this was written into these massive companies bylaws. Their first concern wasn’t regarding profit, it was about community impacts, and then profit came later in the decision.

I think we’ve gotten too far away from this and it’s going to cause even more damage than we’ve already seen. We’re so far away from this ideal and now an awful lot of companies will first decide if they can get away with something and if it will cause quarterly growth, then it’s worth moving forward on with little thought into wider impacts. This change has led to little if any thought going into the community wide second and third order effects. The fallout means we’re now dealing with a drastic diminishing trust in companies.

I share your concerns because I don’t think large organizations are inherently untrustworthy, and I know many (if not most) people inside these organizations have higher ideals and many companies have the best of intentions, but I think their hands are tied by systemic problems and these problems are eroding at fundamental societal trust systems.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#426
post #47

covid19 has become a buzzword factory. Politicians popularize terms like "herd immunity" , "crush the curve", "testing", "ventilators", "PPE" etc to appear to be doing something. "Tracing" is the next in line, but it's a total sham. No country has been able to contain the epidemic with bluetooth. And all the countries that manage the epidemic have first waited until they have very few cases , which can be traced manu…

Would you rather nothing be done? This is potentially a big deal way to automate at scale that has no precedent. It's impossible to say this will/won't work, as it's never been tried. Perfect is the enemy of progress.

This is not the opposite of nothing. It's not that phone tracking hasnt been tried, indeed it did not work where it was tried in e.g. in singapore, korea and no other country made it work. What did work, in multiple countries, is "bring the cases down to very low numbers, interview new cases, isolate aggressively". Perhaps they should focus on the latter 2.

> to automate at scale

If you need to track circulating viruses "at scale" you have already failed, as the apps are going to be popping up false positives left and right and you end up with the entire population individually quarantining themselves.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#427
post #371

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I kind of disagree with this. If a company publicly claims to follow certain principles and vows to have mechanisms in place to protect user privacy, people on the inside are able to judge if those principles are being followed. The larger a company is, the lower are chances that everyone would stay silent in case of a (systematic) breach of those principles. So in a sense, it's much harder for larger companies to secretly do things simply because larger groups of people are worse at keeping secrets.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you can’t convince everyone else to behave ethically, but you can hold yourself to that standard. Working on bomb tech is over a line for me personally.

As someone involved with the industry, this is my take. The work defence contractors do and will continue to do is a measurable positive in the world. This work generally falls into three categories: First is projects that make the lives of armed forces personnel easier. There is no moral or ethical hazard with these projects. They simply are making it so that pre-existing work, often non-combat work, is less tedious…

I generally agree with your comment but this part is IMO delusional:

> These people would be in this fight regardless but now they are able to operate from a safer distance instead.

I sincerely strongly doubt US would be fighting 5 wars with boots-on-the-ground in Afganistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and Iraq, if it weren't for remotely-operated drones.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#429
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I kind of disagree with this. If a company publicly claims to follow certain principles and vows to have mechanisms in place to protect user privacy, people on the inside are able to judge if those principles are being followed. The larger a company is, the lower are chances that everyone would stay silent in case of a (systematic) breach of those principles. So in a sense, it's much harder for larger companies to se…

https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-apple.html

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone involved with the industry, this is my take. The work defence contractors do and will continue to do is a measurable positive in the world. This work generally falls into three categories: First is projects that make the lives of armed forces personnel easier. There is no moral or ethical hazard with these projects. They simply are making it so that pre-existing work, often non-combat work, is less tedious…

If one considers the whole operation of armed forces to be unethical, it's easy to find ethical and moral hazards with the first two points as well. Analogy: Would you consider it unethical to provide tools and services that make the lives of human traffickers easier? To actively protect assets of drug lords distributing contaminated opiates and meth? Slave- and drug trade are about as likely to go away as armed conf…

I think this argument is a bit unfair. As much as I would love for our armed forces and the concept of armed forces as a whole to be unnecessary, the reality is that there is no realistic way for nation states to coexists without some type of armed forces as a deterrent to conflict even if they were never to be put into action. Because of that I don't think it is possible for the simple existence and operation of armed forces to be unethical. Sure armed forces can be used unethically and individuals or units can do unethical things but that is true for all organisations.

This is in the same way that corrupt charity organisations can defraud the causes they claim to support and corporations can knowingly risk the lives of their workers due to either negligence, mismanagement, or for the sole purpose of saving costs or making more money. This doesn't make charities or corporations unethical solely because they have the potential to be.

Additionally, armed forces can and do maintain their operational fitness by using their immense logistics networks and pools of human labour to do very real quantifiable good in the world. Outside of their use as a deterrent and show of power, the US armed forces spends a large chunk of their time and effort responding to natural disasters, taking part in humanitarian efforts, and building infrastructure.

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On to the analogy, I would like to reframe both examples a bit.

For the purpose of this discussion, illegal transportation of individuals falls into two categories: Human trafficking and human smuggling. Human trafficking is done without consent of the individuals being transported. Conversely, human smuggling is done with consent. Despite being illegal, human smuggling provides a very important service to individuals. It may be against the law but it can be argued that it can provide a net benefit.

Mind you that it comes with severe downsides and by no means am I trying to minimise those. I'm just trying to keep this from turning into a 20 page essay on the topic. One of those downsides namely is that it increases the volume of people being transported which makes it cheaper and easier for human trafficking rings to operate. Another downside is that a large number of people die during transportation, both those consenting and non-consenting.

Now if you move onto the less clear cut outcomes, human smuggling allows individuals to enter a country without going through the vetting process. This opens a vector for criminals and terrorists to enter a country however at the same time, it provides a means for people who either aren't willing or aren't able to wait untold years to get a visa to enter the country only for it to then not be renewed a few months or years down the road. These may be individuals or families that want to be productive members of society in a country with a higher standard of living or are trying to move to a location where they can be treated for medical issues that they can't be treated for at home. Another common case in human smuggling is individuals using human smuggling to cross countries that have closed their borders to them so that they can get to a country that will accept them as refugees. The number of reasons somebody would illegally enter a country go on quite a bit and the list is full of both morally sound and morally reprehensible reasons.

With that in mind, while I personally wouldn't participate in any type of business connected to the illegal movement of people across national borders, I see no moral or ethical issues with someone who does so for the sole purpose of making the process safer. Despite the fact that it is illegal, the way I see it is that you are reducing the risk that people lose life and limb.

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Moving on to the other example. My opinion is that most drugs should be legalised and regulated. By moving to a legitimate market and starving these organisations' source of income, we should see drug lords be replaced by corporations. You could argue that the cartels would just find a new market but I see giving them one less black market to deal in as a plus. If this were to happen, in the US those drugs would be required to meet FDA & ATF standards. Sure those that don't would still exist much like improperly distilled/methylated moonshine is still an issue however I could only hope that deaths and injuries due to contaminations would plummet compared to where we are now. Why would you buy contaminated drugs when cheaper, pure, regulated, and mass produced variants exist legally. At this point wouldn't working to improve safety standards and effective distribution in this industry be no more morally or ethically problematic than working for existing alcohol and tobacco corporations?

Now past the hypothetical, I would argue that making things less dangerous would be tangential to your example. Making the drugs themselves less dangerous would be working to increase production standards and decrease contaminations and impurities. With regard to the transportation aspect, drug trafficking is extraordinarily dangerous for those involved. Drug mules expose themselves to immense risk when carrying large doses within their bodies across borders. This is by no means the only way the drugs are transported across the border but if somebody was already involved and wanted to make a difference, making this safer would be one way. Drug mules are often either doing so as a way to support themselves financially, as part of a deal to allow them to be smuggled across the border, or against their will in some cases due to human trafficking or blackmail. In most of those cases, the mule is a more or less unwilling participant. Lowering the risk for these individuals is in my eyes both morally and ethically valid.

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Ultimately I think all of this comes down to this. If you dedicate yourself to work that reduces the loss of life and limb, generally I find that to be a just cause. Defence contractors do this by developing weapon systems that operate at long range with surgical precision to minimise casualties. Armed forces generally do this by serving as a deterrent to violence and by responding to natural disasters and humanitarian crises. In the same sense, there can be people whose work with drug cartels and organisations facilitating illegal human transportation results in a positive impact on people.

Another way to put it would be that I would prefer a drug cartel making a pure product(of quality meeting FDA standards) that is transported without risking people's lives rather than what we have now. In the same way I would rather we have an organisation facilitating human smuggling and trafficking where nobody died or was permanently injured in transit than one where people died and were injured. Obviously in an ideal world we would prefer that there wasn't a reason for either to exist but like you said, they aren't going away any time soon and just because in these cases the organisation might be unethical it shouldn't make the people trying to improve the situation from the inside unethical.

Note: This post is a bit rushed and quite long winded as I wrote it up while taking a break and I've spent more time on this than I probably should have already. I would like to be able to actually write up a proper concise response with citations to back up my assertions however this should hopefully get enough of my point across.

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