Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#341

Post by zerocrates » Tue, May 05, 2020, 5:49 AM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #234

andrepd wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Palantir is involved Holy shit, and I didn't think that this whole contact tracing bullshit could look even worse.

Contact tracing isn't bullshit. It is how they dealt with sexually transmitted diseases four decades ago...it works. The issue is that the UK govt is composed of a combination of incompetent and corrupt people (one of the companies involved in this is owned by a minister). And they are trying to go with the low-cost option (whilst the govt is subsidising 1/4 of salaries paid in the whole country) rather than the old-…

Contact tracing is also in general a lot easier to do for STIs

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#342

Post by Legogris » Tue, May 05, 2020, 5:50 AM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Release the source code and provide some mechanism for users to have verifiable proof that the published code matches the application running on the device and we can start talking about trust.

Given past track record of both companies, this is the only way I would ever have of not being skeptical.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#343

Post by probably_wrong » Tue, May 05, 2020, 5:52 AM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #306

colordrops wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is their code open source? How do you know this?

Yes. https://www.apple.com/covid19/contacttracing/

A PDF document with a specification is not even close to "open source code". There is no way to know whether the specification actually matches the implementation.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#344

Post by nindalf » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:02 AM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #321

bjz_ wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian who has privacy concerns their government's COVIDSafe app (see https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing ), and hence not installing it, I'm really thankful that Apple and Google are pushing this model of contact tracing. We still don't know if digital contact tracing is effective in practice, but it's still important to try, but we can do this in a way that avoids giving governments with worrying au…

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

I read Snowden's biography - Permanent Record. Your claims are untrue. The sibling comment has it right - the US govt could steal data from the tech giants but they gradually got better at plugging such leaks. For example, in response to the Snowden revelations, all data in transit between datacenters is now encrypted. On the other hand, the govt would also request the data of a few people, which was generally granted.

It's not correct that the US govt has root access to all systems and data.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#345

Post by juuul » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:06 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #328

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As a former Apple employee, it's gutsy for you to post this, or anything, certainly on a controversial topic. You don't work for the kind of employer that values someone sticking their head out and saying ... anything. They want to control the message, and saying anything may be worse for both you, and for Apple, than saying nothing. Just be careful. Apple's got the people to manage this PR situation.

As someone else commented, this is one of the reasons why trusting companies like Apple is a bad idea. Even if employees had real concerns about a technology, or wanted to discuss the pros/cons, we would never hear about it. It should be obvious why a strong focus on secrecy and "controlling the message" breeds distrust.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#346

Post by Legogris » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:07 AM UTC

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #203

alex_young wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you can’t convince everyone else to behave ethically, but you can hold yourself to that standard. Working on bomb tech is over a line for me personally.

As someone involved with the industry, this is my take. The work defence contractors do and will continue to do is a measurable positive in the world. This work generally falls into three categories: First is projects that make the lives of armed forces personnel easier. There is no moral or ethical hazard with these projects. They simply are making it so that pre-existing work, often non-combat work, is less tedious…

If one considers the whole operation of armed forces to be unethical, it's easy to find ethical and moral hazards with the first two points as well.

Analogy: Would you consider it unethical to provide tools and services that make the lives of human traffickers easier? To actively protect assets of drug lords distributing contaminated opiates and meth?

Slave- and drug trade are about as likely to go away as armed conflict.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#347

Post by nindalf » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:09 AM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #342

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Release the source code and provide some mechanism for users to have verifiable proof that the published code matches the application running on the device and we can start talking about trust. Given past track record of both companies, this is the only way I would ever have of not being skeptical.

Do you have some evidence that Apple and Google run backdoors to privacy on iOS or Android devices? You speak about the track record of both companies, surely you should be able to point out several examples of this.

The spec seems pretty clear - it's not possible. If you feel that you don't trust them to implement the spec correctly due to incompetence or malice on their part - you need to supply the proof. If we're relying on your gut feel to be skeptical, you just look like an anti-vaxxer saying "I don't trust Big Pharma's vaccines based on my gut feel."

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#348

Post by GeneralMayhem » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:09 AM UTC

deathgrips wrote: post #299

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even those first two can have fairly foreseeable negative effects, though. Not necessarily net negative, mind you, but negative. If (e.g.) American soldiers have less tedium in their downtime (e.g., because paperwork is automated) and are safer (e.g. because their body armor is better), it could very reasonably lead to missions or even whole wars being undertaken that would otherwise be unconscionable. It's kind of l…

That's the point of armies, to be as lethal and effective as possible. A protracted war benefits no one, and a powerful army acts as a deterrent. I think that if you think your country has the right to self-defense, you have a moral obligation to make it as lethal as possible. Ethics is not an excuse for inaction or abandonment of responsibility.

I think this calculus becomes slightly different when you're talking about a nation that will never be in an existential defensive war. A protracted war benefits no one, but knowing that a war would be protracted might benefit the side that would otherwise be the loser by serving as a deterrent to the winner.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#349

Post by richthegeek » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:10 AM UTC

nindalf wrote: post #344

coliveira wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

I read Snowden's biography - Permanent Record . Your claims are untrue. The sibling comment has it right - the US govt could steal data from the tech giants but they gradually got better at plugging such leaks. For example, in response to the Snowden revelations, all data in transit between datacenters is now encrypted. On the other hand, the govt would also request the data of a few people, which was generally grant…

That seems extraordinarily naive. The NSA would not give up access like that unless forced at gunpoint, and the US gov has clearly demonstrated it doesn't care (and actually quite likes) this sort of gross privacy invasion.

The only (in)tangible difference between 2005 and today is the presumed existence of national security letters and other warrants that compel these companies to provide access.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#350

Post by crushthecurve » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:12 AM UTC

orasis wrote: post #272

crushthecurve wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another consideration that seems to have been obscured by the debate on privacy and the narrow focus on the particular client implementation of the app is the significant problem of false positives and negatives. A lot of voices have spoken out about this issue overseas (particularly in the US) while many local tech voices have skipped considering this at all. See: * Previous FTC CTO / Obama Whitehouse senior adviser…

We need to be driving test numbers up until only 3-5% are showing positive in order to be confident about low prevalence in an area. I don't see a problem with false positives encouraging asymptomatic people to get tested - it's as good of a sub-population as any.

The project lead of Singapore's TraceTogether initiative goes into detail about the problems with an automated system, and why a human-in-the-loop is ideally required to evaluate the type of contact and make a determination.

A determination around being a close contact results in 14-day isolation regardless of symptoms, presumably because you may initially test negative before moving into an infectious and asymptomatic or symptomatic phase.

https://blog.gds-gov.tech/automated-contact-tracing-is-not-a...