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Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

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Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security updates should absolutely be a legal obligation. Their absence enables theft, criminal activity, botnets, etc. For the same reason we have laws on fire safety, food safety, carcinogens and asbestos. Average consumer may not know or care about their existence. But if we get rid if them all, organised society will collapse.

At the very least the manufacturer should tell me in a legally binding statement, for how long a product will be supported.

I can totally get behind them having to enter into a legally binding statement, given that it increases the transparency allowing me to make an informed decision as a buyer.

However I still have difficulty in the grey area between "security" and "other" update...

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#422
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why they should electronic makers be "required" to do supply security updates and spare parts for 10 years? To begin with, 10 years is somewhat arbitrary. Why not 12? 15? 20? These tractors could be serviceable for 50 years or more? So why not 50? Not every consumer wants or cares about this, but every consumer would be forced to pay for it. How would this even be enforced? Who will be the judge of what updates were…

I'm happy to listen to alternative solutions on how the environment can be protected from needless product waste. And no, recycling doesn't come close to reuse/repairs. >Not every consumer wants or cares about this What consumers want or care about is less important than the ability to live on the planet in 100 years.

My argument was from the standpoint of consumer protection. If environmental protection is your goal, then I would point out a few issues.

Newer products are often more efficient. It's not clear to me that supporting older products is always better for the environment. For example, newer tractors may be orders of magnitude more efficient in fuel consumption and pollution control. I don't know this for a fact but I think there is sufficient precedent to make this assumption for at least some products. Many consumers will favor short-term gains (not having to pay the cost of a new tractor) over long-term solutions (upgrading and recycling equipment).

Leaving aside products that fit into the above category, lets look at an example of a product commonly discarded before it's usable life. Laptops, for example.

Here again it's not clear to me that legislating requirements for spare parts and security updates would make much difference. After 5 years or so all the laptops of average users that I've encountered are in terrible shape. Tons of spyware, extremely slow, and almost unusable. In this case I would usually just erase and reinstall. Now add a broken part to the list. Especially on cheap laptops, components are increasingly integrated so a single broken part could mean replacing essentially 50% of the machine. Laptops are so cheap. What do you think the consumer will chose: pay for the repair and cleanup of an essentially useless machine, or just buy a new one? So often it's the later.

The closed ecosystems that have sprung up thanks to the App Store have actually improved this, but still, in my experience, people tend to just buy something newer (and better) rather than deal with (and wait for) a repair.

I'm not claiming there would be no impact in legislating around this, but I believe it would be small, riddled with holes and problems, and that there are better approaches (to solving environment problems).

Just a wacky example but consider the following.

Manufactures typically design for a particular lifespan (such that no more than a certain % of devices would fail within a specified number of years). The idea is to reduce the amount of devices being trashed, so perhaps we could create tax incentives to encourage (a) longer life spans and (b) better recyclabiltiy.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#423
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why they should electronic makers be "required" to do supply security updates and spare parts for 10 years? To begin with, 10 years is somewhat arbitrary. Why not 12? 15? 20? These tractors could be serviceable for 50 years or more? So why not 50? Not every consumer wants or cares about this, but every consumer would be forced to pay for it. How would this even be enforced? Who will be the judge of what updates were…

> To begin with, 10 years is somewhat arbitrary. Why not 12? 15? 20? I think the idea is great, filling your proposal with Xs ans Ys isn't. This is not code, it's a suggestion :)

Maybe I think too much like a programmer but then again I think maybe everyone else should think a little more like programmers too... especially legislators.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devils advocating here, but they could always use the boogeyman of China wanting to disrupt our exports via espionage. Remember, doesn't have to be likely, just has to be a good headline.

I feel like if spies were sneaking around farms disabling tractors they probably wouldn't do it via a software thing. Lighting them on fire or shaped charges on the engine seem harder to reverse.

Ehhh, I'm thinking more along the lines of Stuxnet here. i.e. could something be done that doesn't necessarily destroy the attacked equipment itself, but instead impacts the output in a negative (and hard to trace) form.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why GMOs are a bad idea. The science, in and of itself, is amazing stuff. Unfortunately the science doesn't exist in a vacuum and it's the business and legal structures (globally, not just in the US) surrounding it in which GMOs are problematic. Seeds are fundamental to almost all types of farms and the fact that there are "legal intricacies" surrounding the legality of growing food using seeds on your land i…

That doesn't mean GMOs are a bad idea, it means the legalese surrounding it is.

That’s certainly a reasonable position to take. Unfortunately, there’s no way to escapable the legalese, so my opinion is they are practically bad. They’re not absolutely bad, but they are under our current regime.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#426
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least the manufacturer should tell me in a legally binding statement, for how long a product will be supported.

I can totally get behind them having to enter into a legally binding statement, given that it increases the transparency allowing me to make an informed decision as a buyer. However I still have difficulty in the grey area between "security" and "other" update...

Well, sure its grey but it's a finite and definable quantity

Addressing known and reported vulnerabilities would be a start - many routers and phones have known vulnerabilities and can be pwned in minutes.

Then I would include degradation of service - example, I have samsung bluray box that came with YouTube functionality. Withing 1 year that didnt work any more because of changes to youtube. Withing a period of time they should be judged to maintain such software degradations.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. There are countless firms who built their reputation on and survived quite happily making durable products. You might find pages of their early products filling eBay and the like, still going strong. A few are still adhering to those built to last attributes, most have transitioned into "as cheap as we can get away with, but with our valuable brand and logo" as has most of the whole world, including those off…

"Pre 1980s most companies tried to balance the needs of all - staff, customers, local area, and shareholders." I think you have a very strong set of rose-tinted glasses. Planned obsolescence was a strategy long before 1980.

More that I remember the companies I dealt with back then, and the products they made which I bought. Many of which would remain static far longer, with readily available spares available in stores, alongside the new sales. There was some decent effort to use common spares across multiple models, often for decades unless something transformative required a major change.

I could compare and contrast in just about every sector I can think of. Sure there were some abuses, notably some of the car makers come to mind. The needs of the customers -- beyond making the initial sale -- were far higher up the priority list than today.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. There are countless firms who built their reputation on and survived quite happily making durable products. You might find pages of their early products filling eBay and the like, still going strong. A few are still adhering to those built to last attributes, most have transitioned into "as cheap as we can get away with, but with our valuable brand and logo" as has most of the whole world, including those off…

Could you give some examples of such products?

Kenwood and Dualit kitchen equipment and Linn hi-fi. Still support products they made in the sixties and seventies, and have provided upgrade routes and repairs for later improvements. In each case those flagship products still exist, are still being made, perhaps with vastly better materials and technology almost incomparable with the original, and spare and repairs are still readily available.

Not too different with Hoover vacuums in the era of the Hoover Senior and Junior -- they stuck around, being repaired and reconditioned easily for decades. Had Hoover or Dyson not gone with cheap throwaway plastic for everything when cyclones meant capability improved in post 1980/1990 models we might have those lasting 30+ years easily too. As is they self destruct in a decade or less as more and more bits break. The (cheap plastic) spares that are available are priced such that you're heavily incentivised to replace. One or two commercial brands still make products that might last a while...

Most of the current kitchen appliance brands are mainly now just worthless logos, usually owned en masse in a larger group, probably after a leveraged hostile buyout. Now made in the same single factory and generate churn with new models every year - for the sake of difference not because there is any improvement, just deliberately changed from the previous. Spare parts might be just filter, lamp or element, often deliberately unique to model, and will be available at vastly inflated price for limited time only.

No end of other examples from hand tools, garage equipment, and home goods through to the most complex products.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On seed stock it get's even worse, if you are next to a GM > farm and get cross pollinated then your stock is tainted and > you have to reseed again with clean seeds that > will just get tainted in the next spawn. Genuine question: If your neighbor's seeds spread into your farm why do you have to reseed? Are you trying to avoid the cross pollination or are you required to do this by something/someone else?

Not a farmer or a Lawyer, but if you collect seeds from the tainted plants then the new plant is too close to the Patented plant, and therefore illegal for you to grow on your own.

Exactly there was a case of one farmer who did not buy GM stock all of the farms around him did, the genes crossed into his stock and he was sued for not buying the stock. GM buyers are not allowed to reseed it is IP theft according to law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/03/30/f...

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take the parent's comment to mean that everybody has an accent. There's no such thing as neutral or reference-frame speech.

The word "accent" implies that it is being compared to some kind of reference. You might be looking for the word "dialect" here. For example, if you have two speakers with English as a first language and a third from Germany with English as a second language, the native English speakers will probably detect a German accent in the ESL-speaker's dialect. People get into long internet arguments over this, but the closes…

That's just an American-centered view-point though. Just because an accent dominates doesn't mean it's not an accent.
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