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A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

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Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#421

Post by dang »

Mythanar wrote: post #333
meheleventyone wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume from the general description the woman in question is a report so this is less gossip and more opening up to a manager. You’re dealing with another person sharing something that is probably emotionally difficult for them to say. I’d suggest a subtler approach than immediately busting in with the evidence requests. It’s a slower process which is neither immediately believing or disbelieving the accusation bu…

Didn't you just describe the downsides in dealing with women in perfect detail? That complicated attempts at telepathing how emotional it is for them, "subtler approaches", "slower processes", "shutting things down because it's uncomfortable". None of that is needed when both parties are males. Not to mention the entire possibility of that scenario happening is then about nil to begin with.

> the downsides in dealing with women

Between that and "skip the females" this account has gone beyond garden-variety flamewar into uglier incivility and I'm going to ban it. Twice in one thread is more than a slip.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and email us a reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#422

Post by JamesBarney »

nicoburns wrote: post #55
ajkjk wrote: post #23

Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. It was nerdy boys, almost entirely (I remember one exception), who wanted to stay after school playing games on the iMacs in our classroom, and I am pretty sure that it would only be the boys in my…

An interesting data point here ia that girls at all-girls schools tend to take much more interest in STEM subjects, which suggests that he issue might be more to do with social percpetions of what is for girls and boys rather than inherent interest differing between genders.

This is really interesting. Would you mind sharing a link?

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#423

Post by rectang »

smsm42 wrote: post #126
rectang wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All they had to do to find a lab partner is have a pulse. Eh, that sounds a bit like those lab partners may have had dubious motivations. I figure it's on those of us who strive for the highest degree of professionalism to take the lead on inclusion.

So, summarizing the comments here: A: Dudes, go befriend a girl, include her! It's not creepy! B: My anecdata experience suggests girls in my lab, where they were in minority, had no problem being included if they wished to, dudes were very eager to do it. C: Motivations of those dudes sound very dubious and creepy! Yup, yup.

If you're utterly terrified that cross-gender interaction will end badly for you, then maybe it's not best for you to take the lead on outreach.

There are lots of other people who don't feel such an extreme level of fear and discomfort, yet who probably could do more in terms of inclusion. Those are the people I hope the author of this article reaches.

I hope the many commenters on this article who feel so uncomfortable with female colleagues do find some way to improve their situation though -- their alienation is bad for them, bad for women, bad for all of us collectively.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#424

Post by JamesBarney »

typomatic wrote: post #73
ajkjk wrote: post #23

Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. It was nerdy boys, almost entirely (I remember one exception), who wanted to stay after school playing games on the iMacs in our classroom, and I am pretty sure that it would only be the boys in my…

> Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. I think your experiences are typical, thanks for sharing. I'm curious what theory-of-the-gap you've found that you like more than the ones you've seen? You were (intentionally or not) a little cag…

I know lots of really smart women, many whose careers pay less than software. When I asked if they ever thought about coding all but one basically said they weren't interested.

The one who was interested said she didn't pursue coding(is a PM instead) because during her first year of college she felt behind because some of her fellow students had 5-6 years of coding experience and she'd only had 1-2. So she switched to MIS.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#425

Post by meowface »

geebee wrote: post #414
meowface wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the author would generally be sympathetic to Damore's memo (but who knows for sure) based on the views espoused in this post, so I don't quite understand your point.

The point seems fairly clear to me. arkis22 is pointing out that this author is making unfavorable generalizations about men, and stating that these generalizations are probably partly due to biology. Here, it is that women assign greater value to close friendships. Later, she states that: "My experience confirms that teenage and college-age girls care more than boys do about solving real human problem (as opposed to…

I see, their point is that this particular woman can talk about biological differences but Damore can't. (I misinterpreted the poster as saying that the author was contradicting herself by rebuking Damore, which she wasn't, but that's not what they meant.)

That is a valid point. But the issue should be taken with Google's leadership and the individuals who unjustly raked Damore over the coals (his post-termination behavior notwithstanding). A reductive "women can get away with saying this but men can't" complaint doesn't really help anyone. It has truth to it, but it also feels unnecessarily confrontational and simplistic to me.

The poster also dismissed her claims with a mere "I really don't believe any of those statements" and then backed it with what seems to be a random assumption that the studies are biased and must have been seeking this particular outcome from the start, without any supporting evidence. I think the more sensible position is that Damore's gender difference claims and the author's gender difference claims are both correct (at least with the scientific evidence currently known). The us vs. them attitude is irritating.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#426

Post by JamesBarney »

eli wrote: post #91
ajkjk wrote: post #23

Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. It was nerdy boys, almost entirely (I remember one exception), who wanted to stay after school playing games on the iMacs in our classroom, and I am pretty sure that it would only be the boys in my…

Girls aren't interested in playing games?

I think in the 80's,90's and early 00's this was true because very few computer and console games were targeted towards women.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#427

Post by pvg »

Mythanar wrote: post #338
pvg wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

impetus Maybe you mean onus? And no, it isn't because that's exactly the sort of thinking that keeps the field as non-diverse and exclusionary as it is. What you're describing isn't some sort of property of an effective team. It's one of a hostile workplace.

That's where we disagree. All effective teams are exclusionary; I've never seen an effective team chosen by lottery tickets. And effective intra-team communication is their most defining trait. In my experience, so long as diversity does not impede communication, it is a neutral trait (neither positive nor negative correlation).

Not having a discriminatory environment is not the same as 'chosen by lottery ticket'. And for certain classes, having it is against the law no matter whether you feel it's neutral or chaotic or whatnot.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#428

Post by finnthehuman »

turingcompeteme wrote: post #188
as1mov wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been browsing this thread for about 45 minutes. Not a single comment is rude, most of the comments are trying to debate about the issue. If you post a submission on a forum and expect everyone to blindly agree with you or you else you consider it as "hate", then the problem is perhaps with you.

They didn't say rude, they mentioned empathy. Julia Enthoven shared her experience as a Woman in tech, and this thread is filled with nitpicking, asking for sources, disagreement, alternate theories, debates, etc. There is no empathy here. So I'll start: Good for her for sharing her thoughts and experiences. It's a tough topic to talk about, and as we see here and elsewhere, people will immediately pick apart everyth…

>this thread is filled with nitpicking, asking for sources, disagreement, alternate theories, debates, etc.

Sounds fairly typical for a Hacker News thread on any topic.

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#429

Post by meowface »

stcredzero wrote: post #416
meowface wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these commenters don't appear to be whining about their situation, but rather replying to the question of why men in tech positions don't try to befriend more women. Their answer is that they're concerned about the optics of trying to initiate the friendship. And by unattractive, they don't necessarily mean "ugly" but rather geeky, asocial, with niche interests, no fashion sense, little in common with most wo…

And by unattractive, they don't necessarily mean "ugly" but rather geeky, asocial, with niche interests, no fashion sense, little in common with most women, etc Young men and women in their 20's usually don't have a very good self awareness of their own inherent attractiveness. There's that which Iain M. Banks termed, "the elegance of the newly matured." By that, I mean something which is natural, and of the natural…

That is easier said than done for people who have been struggling with social isolation, ostracization, loneliness, mockery, anxiety, awkwardness, zero self-esteem, an inability to relate, and little or no contact with the opposite sex for their entire lives. They don't know how to dress in a fashionable or appealing way. They probably don't know proper grooming beyond the basics. And even if they were to improve their physical appearance, many will likely still have a lot of difficulty carrying out normal social interactions (in the minds of others), especially with the opposite sex.

You say "genuinely be yourself", but many people are unable to be themselves without unintentionally and unknowingly creating aversion and discomfort in others.

Of course many of these people can and do improve themselves and gain a lot more confidence, but the reality is that in tech careers, they exist in large numbers and will continue to exist. Many will have experienced situations where a woman feels uncomfortable or threatened despite purely good and platonic/professional intentions. Many will choose to limit all interactions with women to a minimum as a result of this, if for no other reason than instinctive and learned fear.

And on the flip side, many women will probably have experienced romantic/sexual advances, stalking, and harassing behavior from awkward people like this (perhaps sometimes from people who don't realize they're coming across that way and sometimes from people who know exactly what they're doing), so they've been conditioned to have this reaction as well.

This is not to put blame on either party, but just to describe the reality of the situation and one of the potential reasons why women may feel less connected to their coworkers at such jobs. Many women also struggle with anxiety, awkwardness, isolation, and the other issues listed, but on average it tends to be less common and less severe than for men, especially in CS-type fields (as the article describes).

Re: A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

#430

Post by smsm42 »

mikeash wrote: post #169
smsm42 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, summarizing the comments here: A: Dudes, go befriend a girl, include her! It's not creepy! B: My anecdata experience suggests girls in my lab, where they were in minority, had no problem being included if they wished to, dudes were very eager to do it. C: Motivations of those dudes sound very dubious and creepy! Yup, yup.

You left out the creepy “have a pulse” part.

What's creepy in having a pulse? It is the thing about discriminating against Zombie-Americans?
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