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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#421

Post by geoffpado »

mwfunk wrote: post #365
xbmcuser wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple will loose in China because of blocking these apps as well this will be another reason to not buy Apple for many.

I don't understand what you're saying. The alternative is not doing business in China at all, how would they sell more phones in China by getting out of the Chinese market, vs staying in China and complying with the government's demands? I'm very curious about what your market research indicates, because it sounds like a contradiction.

I think what xbmcuser is saying is that Apple is screwed either way: don't pull the apps and be kicked out of China altogether, or pull the apps and lose a competitive advantage. Not that Apple would lose _more_ this way, simply that they still lose.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#422

Post by grwthckrmstr »

bsder wrote: post #420
enraged_camel wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

> What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Start building factories elsewhere. Help put together a similar manufacturing ecosystem in a different country. Automate their manufacture so much that it no longer matters if labor is done in China. If Apple paid an extra 10-20% to locate factories elsewhere and started pulling out of China, it would be a gigantic hit to China while b…

I wish that happened. Not just, but all the other companies (including the clothing line owned by Ivanka Trump)

But Apple/all others wouldn't.. Because 20% profit.

Driven by our own capitalist agendas, we're the ones fuelling China after all.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#423

Post by JulienSchmidt »

nsxwolf wrote: post #202

Why hasn't iMessage been blocked in China? Does apple run a special compromised version of it there, or has China simply not made banning it a priority yet, or is iMessage simply not as secure as we have been told?

Most likely Apple cooperates with the respective agencies as requested by Chinese laws. If not yet, they will have to start very soon or iMessage will also be blocked.

Are there any signs of Censorship on iMessage so far? Are terms that are known to be blocked on WeChat, QQ etc (e.g. 法轮功 / Falun Gong) still working on iMessage?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#424

Post by JulienSchmidt »

jonbarker wrote: post #381

Couldn't you just do this in China? https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-o...

The problem is that none of the default protocols work in China. Either they are blocked via DPI in combination with techniques like TCP RST injection / null-routing of the destination IPs, or they are known to be insecure, like PPTP (which is why it is removed in iOS 10)

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#425

Post by yarg »

acdha wrote: post #413
yarg wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dissent against authoritarian governments will always be a game of cat and mouse - sometimes the cat will catch the mouse, there's no preventing that. But I think that you're underestimating the power of the mathematics here in terms of the levels of achievable misdirection. If the government gets into your unencrypted context you're pretty much fucked - I'll give you that - but it does not necessarily mean that anyo…

A nation state doing traffic analysis will have people working full time to subvert the initial weak link of getting the software (which nobody else uses so simply possessing it will be seen as a sign of criminal intent) and keying information, doing statistical analysis to find why people have unusual access patterns to that innocent content and correlating people not known to be connected who are showing those same…

Obtaining the software is hard, that is certain - but human beings have been successfully smuggling contraband for as long as there has been such a thing. And when you download the dozen specific fluffy cat videos, you don't just download that set - that would be fundamentally stupid - the set exists to mask the source, not to protect the receiver. The receiver would download a naively popular superset of the target set - you mask suspicion by hiding with the sheep.

Absolute trust is fundamentally impossible (the place where there is no darkness is a legitimate concern here). How do you even know that the public keys on your machines are true, that the hashes of your OS ISOs are not false, that every semblance of the assumption of security that you are working within is not simply a cleverly laid trap designed to lead you to naively reveal your hitherto hidden intentions?

Eventually, you just have to run with "fuck it, I'll do what I can to cover my arse - let the chips fall where they may".

The fact that it is fundamentally impossible to know the underlying intention of any foreign consciousness or computational context does not necessarily mean that none can ever be trusted, only that they can never be fully trusted - and that you should use whatever degree of caution you believe is justified for the given situation.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#426

Post by wingerlang »

j605 wrote: post #263
yoda_sl wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you get that from? Creating app with your own dev account can run on your device for more than 10 days... [Update] ok I just checked the limitation of the free dev account, and yes because of certificates it is only valid for 7 days... I was thinking about the regular $$ account.

It is idiotic that you can't compile and install something on a device you own.

But you can?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#427

Post by gurkendoktor »

resf wrote: post #415
eps wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very naive point of view. Apple has shown the willingness to compromise to access the Chinese market, so there's absolutely no reason to believe that they wouldn't or haven't bow to their other demands, including the weakening of their device security.

Your argument is that it's OK to hurt someone if there's a chance that they might be hurt regardless. If I were Chinese I'd be feeling pretty damn patronized if someone told me they were taking my iPhone away and I should be happy about it.

> If I were Chinese I'd be feeling pretty damn patronized if someone told me they were taking my iPhone away and I should be happy about it.

No. You just have to reform your government or leave your country, then you can have it back. I know that this isn't likely, but putting more pressure on the CCP is exactly what Apple could be doing here.

(Edit: The sibling comment thread already goes into detail on this idea.)

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#428

Post by skybrian »

Darthy wrote: post #390
skybrian wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, "ability to censor" is basically just having an app store. Companies can decide what they'll include in their store, which means governments can also regulate what they're allowed to sell (or block the app store altogether in that country). That doesn't mean app stores are inherently evil; they still do a lot of good by making sure people can easily find and pay for high-quality apps. As you say, a reaso…

To be clear, what you mean by "having an app store" is "reverting 40 years of established software usage best practice and downgrade to dictatorial way where a central company can control everything". Words have power. "App store" sounds up-beat, friendly and inclusive. But the rules behind what Apple has established that "App store" actually means are anything but.

Apple didn't invent the app store and weren't many mobile phones before the iPhone (running J2ME or whatever) even more restrictive?

Also, Android doesn't restrict side-loading in this way so I disagree that restricting side-loading is an essential feature of an app store as commonly understood.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#429

Post by simonh »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #162
simonh wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of Apple's devices are manufactured in China? The Chinese Government could completely cripple Apple in a second. It really isn't Apple that has the leverage. Censorship is fundamental to Chinese government policy. It's totally non-negotiable. You either do as they say, or you don't operate in China. No negotiation, no compromise. Given the manufacturing situation China has Apple by the short and curlies, and…

So, you think china doesn't care about unemployment? Also, there is no such thing as "non-negotiable". Everything is negotiable, if you are able to offer something of enough value in exchange.

If you think Apple has anything valuable enough for China to abandon its principle means of social and political control, I think you're sadly mistaken.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#430

Post by ethbro »

derefr wrote: post #409
ethbro wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. A market being large isn't an excuse for bloody hands. Furthermore, don't let Chinese companies trade on US exchanges if they participate in human rights abuses. Everyone knows what the Chinese government is doing strategically with leveraging access to their markets in exchange for control and forced tech transfer. Other countries are well within their moral rights to insist upon a quid pro quo... or else do t…

The problem for product companies is that the secondary market still exists, and people's perceptions of a brand can be affected by its secondary market just as well as they can by its primary market. If Apple isn't in China, that doesn't mean that nobody will be able to sell iPhones in China. That just means that Apple won't be selling iPhones in China. But someone, somewhere will still be importing iPhones into Chi…

This generalizes to "Apple should do business with everyone" though.

And it's not really moral high ground if you're taking it through no cost to yourself.

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