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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#421

Post by Nursie »

pluma wrote: post #389
Nursie wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Commission gets a bad rap because basically it's been stuffed with cronies and friends of council members. The UK may be the worst for this, we had one Commissioner who had been disgraced out of the UK cabinet twice, and then found himself in a nice 'untouchable' position on the Commission. He's now a Lord. There are flaws in UK democracy certainly but I don't think the EU got it right. I also fundamentally have…

> Switzerland and Iceland Sure but the UK is not Switzerland or Iceland. On the world stage Iceland is irrelevant. It's a lot like Switzerland without influence. Sure, Iceland can afford to be eccentric about world politics because it's not under the direct influence of other countries to the same extent as most are but it also doesn't hold any real influence itself. The UK doesn't want to be Iceland, it wants to be…

I'm sorry, you lost me when you started on about empire, I've seen nobody calling for a return to empire, or even invoking empire except as a way to harangue and belittle those who voted leave.

You seem very hostile to the UK generally. Weird given your last comparatively friendly comment.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#422

Post by arethuza »

afandian wrote: post #396
hiddencost wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^-- Submarine argument of the current white nationalist movement. Basic flaw: it elides "the wants of white nationalists" with "the culture of the country" and tries to imply that the wants of white nationalists are the only one that exists. A subset of people are being prodded to give up their sovereignty; a significant chunk of folks in the UK actually wanted the EU, most notably immigrants, students, young folks.

As a British citizen I have more in common culturally with my German, Swedish, Austrian, Spanish, Danish, French etc friends and colleagues than I feel with a large chunk of my own country. The people who tell me that I should be patriotic and culturally identify with them as British are the people I'd want to run a million miles from.

Great comment - I wish I could vote this up more than once.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#423

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

vidarh wrote: post #309
coldtea wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's that "some point" that makes everything wishy washy. If I'm in favour of Scottish independence I cite common Scottish culture. If I'm in favour of the UK I cite the hundreds of years of shared culture. If I'm in favour of the EU I cite decades of shared culture. None of these are wrong, despite being in clear disagreement with each other. Well, it's up to what the majority likes. Everything is wishy-washy…

Majorities often shift, and depend on other changes. E.g. Brexit probably means the end of the UK as we know it - it substantially increased the odds of Scottish independence, as England is far more right wing, but have been held in check by EU law. It may even mean a unified Ireland, as there's been a solid shift towards the Republican side in Stormont, and even some unionists seem to be disillusioned by how the con…

For the avoidance of doubt, as I see this sentiment all over the frickin internet, a united Ireland is a very unlikely outcome of Brexit.

The Good Friday agreement states that the Secretary of State for NI shall call a referendum on the question if he or she believes that it will be passed.

Right now, there is a solid unionist majority in the North. The gains made by Sinn Fein are most likely the result of unionists staying home (the first minister, Arlene Foster was accused of corruption). This will most likely remain the case for the next twenty years.

And even, if by some miracle or amazing confluence of events this occurs, I fear that we would have hardline freedom-fighters blowing crap up in the island for some time afterwards.

Scotland is definitely looking more likely, given the long-standing differences between their social policy and England, but the Spanish veto is always an issue (unless they join after the UK leaves).

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#424

Post by Nursie »

handelaar wrote: post #413
Nursie wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, EU membership was a lock on ECHR membership. But leaving the EU does noy (yet) mean leaving ECHR.

Leaving the ECHR is however the stated policy of the current UK government, and leaving the EU will allow it to actually do so.

We can only hope they fail.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#425

Post by simonh »

folli wrote: post #154
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

A primarily trade union with most political decisions made by nation states is exactly what the EU is. The failure of the Euro has also pretty much guaranteed it will stay that way too.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#426

Post by pluma »

presidente20 wrote: post #400
pluma wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it you're saying "the EU is undemocratic because we don't want to participate in its most direct democratic process". Do I need to point out why that argument is flawed?

No. People see the EU as undemocratic because Parliament is neither the main policy-making body nor the main executive power. It is more of a supervisory body, akin to the role of Congress or the House of Lords. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament#Control_of...

Sorry, I missed the bit where the Council doesn't consist of the democratically heads of states of the member nations (or their individually appointed delegates).

If your country's Council member doesn't represent your interests, that's not the EU's fault, that's your government's fault.

Literally every person who gets to do anything in the EU Parliament, Commission or Council is ultimately in that position because of a democratic election in that member nation -- be it via the direct vote for the Parliament, the national election for the head of state or the combination of those two for the Commission.

The EU isn't full of corporate cronies because the EU sucks. The EU is full of corporate cronies because the member nations' governments suck. And that includes the UK (which in the EU has been at the forefront of various things people like to complain about -- including in the UK itself).

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#427

Post by thomasahle »

pimterry wrote: post #381
dmix wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Er, didn't Canada just sign a trade pact with the EU which does sacrifice some of the independence of their borders, laws and courts? CETA will: Yes, if anything this supports what I'm talking about, this is why I'm critical of the EU, dealing with EU bureaucrats always goes beyond strictly economic interests... but still CETA is hardly comparable to the ever expanding scope of being part of the EU. Nor would I ass…

It's interesting. I agree the world would be easier and better if we could create trade deals without these extra rules. My impression is that they're all necessary parts of fair deals though. > Nor would I assume that agreements between the UK + US or Asian countries would necessarily include EU style requirements Sadly, they will. As an example, the UK trade deal with India has hit problems already ( http://www.ind…

> The arbitration courts are more contentious. I'm not sure exactly why they're necessary, or what alternatives there might be there.

If you agree there should be rules, you must also agree there should be a court for arbitration. Of course the countries could use their local courts, but courts are hierarchial for a reason. Unless one country decides to subject itself to the other countries supreme court, it seems that an independent court is needed for the deal?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#428

Post by rayiner »

simonh wrote: post #425
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

A primarily trade union with most political decisions made by nation states is exactly what the EU is. The failure of the Euro has also pretty much guaranteed it will stay that way too.

The crucial difference is that the E.U. can impose regulations on citizens of member states that have the force of law, and those laws override national law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union). The U.S. has a similar principal (the Supremacy Clause), and in the long term that resulted in the gutting of states as sovereign entities.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#429

Post by folli »

hocuspocus wrote: post #175
bontoJR wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are pretty much the same forecasts Switzerland and Norway were supposed to face when they rejected to join the EU... people losing jobs, Swiss Franc falling, export collapsing, etc... well, it went a little bit in a different way. OFC leaving is totally a different thing from not being in at all, but still... there are going to be pro and cons, but the economy will adapt as happened in Switzerland and Norway. S…

The UK is putting itself in a much tougher situation, this is absolutely not comparable to Switzerland and Norway. And some of the forecasts about Switzerland turned out very real. We have to agree and comply with Europe on most things, without much bargaining power. And the EURCHF swings can literally put businesses to the ground overnight.

This could also be construed as the EU acting as a hegemony and abusing their economic power to force smaller countries to accept their terms. The same can be currently observed when some EU exponents demand that the Brits get punished for pulling out.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#430

Post by coldtea »

vidarh wrote: post #309
coldtea wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's that "some point" that makes everything wishy washy. If I'm in favour of Scottish independence I cite common Scottish culture. If I'm in favour of the UK I cite the hundreds of years of shared culture. If I'm in favour of the EU I cite decades of shared culture. None of these are wrong, despite being in clear disagreement with each other. Well, it's up to what the majority likes. Everything is wishy-washy…

Majorities often shift, and depend on other changes. E.g. Brexit probably means the end of the UK as we know it - it substantially increased the odds of Scottish independence, as England is far more right wing, but have been held in check by EU law. It may even mean a unified Ireland, as there's been a solid shift towards the Republican side in Stormont, and even some unionists seem to be disillusioned by how the con…

>Majorities often shift, and depend on other changes.

Yes, but what's the alternative? Having countries run on "expert opinion" lest people shift their preferences later?

When majorities shift they can always revert course in any case.

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