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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#421

Post by tux1968 »

irishcoffee wrote: post #379
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet for each of us, where we're at right now, we lose weight by eating less and exercising more that we are right now . Its a wonderfully self-calibrating system.

Nobody likes that answer. Personal accountability sucks.

It doesn't matter what people like, what matters are the facts of the situation. I'm arguing that answers like yours are self serving reinforcement of your own ideas about morality which blind you to the possibility that you're just wrong in thinking that everyone is on the same playing field.

That does NOT mean we aren't all personally responsible. It means that you should consider having compassion and less contempt for people who fail where you succeed.

Are there cases of pure gluttony and laziness leading to obesity? Damn straight there are, and I'm not arguing otherwise. But whether you believe me or not there are real challenges that _some_ fat people face that you (presumably) and I just don't have to deal with.

Think of it this way, if someone is born with only one leg. They still have all the same personal responsibility you and I have to live their life as an adult. But both of us will understand if they struggle with certain things we're able to accomplish with ease. You wouldn't dream of saying that person lacks personal accountability because he struggles with walking.

So why do you presume to know FOR SURE that everyone who is fat got that way because of a failing of personal accountability? Perhaps they were just born without a leg... so to speak...

I hope you'll reconsider your position. At least to admit there is a possibility that other people have unseen handicaps that you just don't have to deal with.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#422

Post by GrinningFool »

balabaster wrote: post #411
GrinningFool wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> having ADHD and ODD I strongly suspect that we're looking at the same combination in our son. Sadly I'm reluctant to take my concerns to a medical professional because ODD has a strong correlation with abuse. While I've no doubt that some of my and my wife's parenting has contributed to this, abuse isn't happening -- it's literally been his personality since he could first talk. Still, it's enough to make me uncom…

With regards to the medical diagnosis - this is the back story, sorry it's a little long winded: So our eldest was born with 2 holes in her heart. She is the one suffering ODD. She was a difficult baby from the very outset, she wouldn't feed and was in hospital for the first 3 months of her life with her mother living in with her and me providing relief outside of work so she could get some much needed rest so it was…

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply.

> f you ever want to feel like you were cut in two and had your beating heart ripped out of your chest - that was that moment.

Just reading it and thinking of the situation hurts - I can't quite imagine living with/through it.

> We asked ourselves many times if this behaviour was just normal kids and that our perspective was just skewed.

This, so many times. The frustrating thing is when describing many of the behaviors, there is nothing on the surface to differentiate it from a kid being a kid. It's only the continued nature of them over time that raises concerns with us. We were deterred by our family physician early on when we first raised these concerns.

We're currently in the process of going through the school's evaluation and paperwork. I do agree - they were hesitant to ask us to take this route because of that usual response from parents, and they seemed honestly surprised when we agreed to do the evaluation. I'm still on the fence around pulling in medical help, because medicating a six year old isn't on my list of things to do...

> Does it affect how she's treated at school, to an extent yes, but on the whole the staff have been amazing and collaborative with us

That's good to know, though certainly it'll vary by school district. The school has been very supportive in our discussions so far, and in how they handle him in class.

Thanks again for taking this time, it's very helpful.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#423

Post by Broken_Hippo »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #415
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His punishment could get him arrested here (Norway) as well. They have pretty strict limits on violence towards children: They put it as none, including but not limited to spanking.

I've never seen a child physically punished here in Norway, in fact it is very rare indeed to hear a raised voice. Usually when you do hear a raised voice and see a misbehaving child it is a visitor or, occasionally, a refugee. I remember being shocked when on holiday in Sweden, Gothenburg, a couple of years ago I saw an American (speaking American accented English at least) man slap a misbehaving child in the street…

Your story reminds me of my spouse: He was visiting the US and somehow wound up in a Chuck E Cheese. Playing for the children was war scenes, with tanks and soldiers. He was pretty appalled it was acceptable for children due to violence.

And children were one of the things that does seem very different to me - shockingly so. I'm American, and most children are fairly quiet. But they are much more free to roam, within some reason and allowed to play quite often, even while at school. I'm going to guess all this helps out quite a bit along with your last points.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#424

Post by DanBC »

qb45 wrote: post #403
DanBC wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then no amount of physical discipline, even up to child abuse All physical discipline is child abuse. That's why it's illegal in most of Europe.

The obvious exploitation vector is deliberately pissing you off to make you feel guilty and lose confidence. I think my father used to be like you for the first two years or so, then he grew up :)

I'm very confidant that adults who resort to hitting children have failed at parenting.

EDIT: in this thread you have two people thinking it's okay to deliberately burn a child -to hold a child's hand to a cooker hot ring- to "teach" that child the risk of playing with ovens. Learn to parent you hopeless clueless fucking idiots.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#425

Post by balabaster »

GrinningFool wrote: post #422
balabaster wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regards to the medical diagnosis - this is the back story, sorry it's a little long winded: So our eldest was born with 2 holes in her heart. She is the one suffering ODD. She was a difficult baby from the very outset, she wouldn't feed and was in hospital for the first 3 months of her life with her mother living in with her and me providing relief outside of work so she could get some much needed rest so it was…

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. > f you ever want to feel like you were cut in two and had your beating heart ripped out of your chest - that was that moment. Just reading it and thinking of the situation hurts - I can't quite imagine living with/through it. > We asked ourselves many times if this behaviour was just normal kids and that our perspective was just skewed. This, so many times.…

Yeah, I'm still on the fence about medication but I will tell you this for sure. The medication has made the difference between it being more manageable. I won't say it cures all the behaviours, but it takes the edge off. When used with other tools, like learning to discuss and manage her feelings with a therapist, it's made her temper and behaviour on the whole much more bearable.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#426

Post by jacobr »

vidarh wrote: post #289
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

If you allow your kid to get away with the 3rd option, then your kid now knows that your choices aren't genuine. None of these kind of methods work if you let them know that when you say there are two alternatives there really are three. And I've seen this work often enough when we've had friends of my son come over that we often see act up around their parents, but that will try that shit once with us and then follo…

My oldest son quite often comes up with a third, better alternative. The fact that I consider and sometimes accept them might make some other situations harder, because obviously he often cannot understand more complex situations and then there is a conflict. Saying no to a perfectly reasonable suggestion (because it wasn't mine) might teach him to never argue, but I wouldn't want that.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#427

Post by andrei_says_ »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #323
andrei_says_ wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a real choice but a simple manipulation aiming to provide the illusion of choice. The purpose of parenting is not to control the children but to support them in learning themselves and the world. Human beings are intelligent and wired for success. It doesn't take long before we start realizing the difference between choices that don't matter to us and ones that do. If you're looking for parenting practice…

Yes. Natural consequences and contrived consequences are two very different things.

Exactly. A good example of natural consequences:

You forgot your jacket. It rains. You get wet.

A good example of manipulation/constructed "consequences":

You didn't write your homework. You don't get to play video games.

And, by the way, if you want your kid to hate a specific video game, turn it into (home)work. This is the approach schools take to killing our children's creativity and natural curiosity.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#429

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tux1968 wrote: post #421
irishcoffee wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody likes that answer. Personal accountability sucks.

It doesn't matter what people like, what matters are the facts of the situation. I'm arguing that answers like yours are self serving reinforcement of your own ideas about morality which blind you to the possibility that you're just wrong in thinking that everyone is on the same playing field. That does NOT mean we aren't all personally responsible. It means that you should consider having compassion and less contemp…

Sure there are corner cases. But almost everybody can lose weight almost always by simply eating less and exercising more. The rest of the billion-dollar industry preys upon our low self-control by promising some magic cure. That requires no effort.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#430

Post by flowersoldier »

Waterluvian wrote: post #226
maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think some breeds are just kind of fundamentally flawed. Were chihuahuas bred to be obedient or were they bred to be toys and possibly food?

I heard they were bred to be alarm dogs. Nothing was getting close to your camp if you had a chihuahua. That's why they never shut up, and they are so difficult to ignore. My friend from Mexico told me that - he's not a dog authority by any means, but it sounded legit to me.
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