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DeepSeek v4

api-docs.deepseek.com

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Re: DeepSeek v4

#411

Post by dannyw »

menzoic wrote: post #293
revolvingthrow wrote: post #160

> pricing "Pro" $3.48 / 1M output tokens vs $4.40 I’d like somebody to explain to me how the endless comments of "bleeding edge labs are subsidizing the inference at an insane rate" make sense in light of a humongous model like v4 pro being $4 per 1M. I’d bet even the subscriptions are profitable, much less the API prices. edit: $1.74/M input $3.48/M output on OpenRouter

API prices may be profitable. Subscriptions may still be subsidized for power users. Free tiers almost certainly are. And frontier labs may be subsidizing overall business growth, training, product features, and peak capacity, even if a normal metered API call is profitable on marginal inference.

Research and training costs have to be amortized from somewhere; and labs are always training. I'm definitely keen for the financials when the two files for IPO though, it would be interesting to see; although I'm sure it won't be broken down much.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#412

Post by setr »

raincole wrote: post #250
lykr0n wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they're optimizing for a different problem. Western Models are optimizing to be used as an interchangeable product. Chinese models are being optimizing to be built upon.

[flagged]

First you clone the API of the winner, because you want to siphon users from its install-base and offer de-risked switch over cost.

Now that you’re winning, others start cloning your API to siphon your users.

Now that you’re losing, you start cloning the current winner, who is probably a clone of your clone.

Highly competitive markets tend to normalize, because lock-in is a cost you can’t charge and remain competitive. The customer holds power here, not the supplier.

Thats also why everyone is trying to build into the less competitive spaces, where they could potentially moat. Tooling, certs, specialized training data, etc

Re: DeepSeek v4

#413

Post by Cthulhu_ »

barrenko wrote: post #369
ifwinterco wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit I'm here for it to be honest, I'm tired of America with everything that's going on. China is not perfect but a bit of competition is healthy and needed

[flagged]

Not so much a trade war as basic economic forces, and it's been going on for much longer than that. When infrastructure improves, companies and customers can look further to get their stuff done. If it's cheaper to do your industrial or manufacturing work abroad and have it transported to your country, that just happens.

The powers that be try to slow this down by banning imports outright (you can't for example import American chicken into Europe because of food safety laws), or high import taxes (Chinese EVs have a 50% import tax in Europe and the US to protect the local car manufacturers. Which is fair because the Chinese EV manufacturers are state-sponsored so their prices are unfair. Then again, western companies get billions in investor money to push the prices down).

Re: DeepSeek v4

#414

Post by miroljub »

jurgenburgen wrote: post #330
ifwinterco wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit I'm here for it to be honest, I'm tired of America with everything that's going on. China is not perfect but a bit of competition is healthy and needed

I don’t know if we’re ahead of the curve but that tired feeling has started turning into hate here in the EU. I guess being threatened with invasion does that to you. The next decade is going to look very different with America Alone.

[flagged]

Re: DeepSeek v4

#415

Post by sterlind »

koe123 wrote: post #355
jurgenburgen wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if we’re ahead of the curve but that tired feeling has started turning into hate here in the EU. I guess being threatened with invasion does that to you. The next decade is going to look very different with America Alone.

I grew up in the states when I was younger, always feeling some closeness to Americans even after I moved back to Europe. With all that goes on it has changed. Recently I sat on a plane near some Americans discussing their holidays here, and I noticed I felt contempt. Sitting their with insane privilege as their government torches the world. Individuals remain individuals, and one really ought not to be prejudice. Ho…

not all of us are just "sitting here with insane privilege." it's quite dangerous for some of us right now.

I'm trans. this Administration does not like us. after Charlie Kirk's murder, things got legitimately scary. Musk was retweeting people who called us "deranged bioweapons" who needed to be "forcibly institutionalized." NSPM-7 is surveilling and infiltrating trans organizations. the Heritage Foundation proposed labeling us as "ideological extremists," in the same category as neo-Nazis. if I'm arrested, I'll go to a men's prison where I'll likely be given to a violent inmate as his cellmate to "pacify" him (V-coding.)

so yeah, I keep my head down. a lot of Jews kept their heads down in Germany in the '30s, you know? and just like then, it doesn't seem like other countries are too keen on taking us in as refugees. I hope that changes if things get bleak.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#416

Post by calgoo »

barrenko wrote: post #369
ifwinterco wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit I'm here for it to be honest, I'm tired of America with everything that's going on. China is not perfect but a bit of competition is healthy and needed

[flagged]

You mean the west handed their industry to china over the last 15 years? Its not like the US is any better off in this. The EU is not a country, so you can't talk about it as if it was. Each country has their own companies and industries. There is AI in Europe, and its growing, however we might not be as "energetic" about destroying our countries to build giant data centers to serve our billionaire overlords. That does not mean that there is no investment, there is, including a bunch of American corporations like Amazon. But there is also a lot of corruption and bribing (lobbying - lets call it what it really is, no more whitewashing) going on around that too.

So again, stop referring to EU as a country, we are not, and it just annoys any Europeans as it comes of as "Americans who don't understand the world outside of the USA".

Re: DeepSeek v4

#417

Post by mazurnification »

dalemhurley wrote: post #326
sudo_cowsay wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes wonder if there are any security risks with using Chinese LLMs. Is there?

Theoretically yes. It is entirely possible to poison the training data for a supply chain attack against vibe coders. The trick would be to make it extremely specific for a high value target so it is not picked up by a wide range of people. You could also target a specific open source project that is used by another widely used product. However there is so many factors involved beyond your control that it would not b…

But propaganda or non ethical marketing - why not? (That is bias toward pointing to certain provider(s)).

Re: DeepSeek v4

#418

Post by dannyw »

crazylogger wrote: post #339
revolvingthrow wrote: post #160

> pricing "Pro" $3.48 / 1M output tokens vs $4.40 I’d like somebody to explain to me how the endless comments of "bleeding edge labs are subsidizing the inference at an insane rate" make sense in light of a humongous model like v4 pro being $4 per 1M. I’d bet even the subscriptions are profitable, much less the API prices. edit: $1.74/M input $3.48/M output on OpenRouter

I haven't seen anyone claiming that API prices are subsidized. At some point (from the very beginning till ~2025Q4) Claude Code's usage limit was so generous that you can get roughly $10~20 (API-price-equivalent) worth of usage out of a $20/mo Pro plan each day (2 * 5h window) - and for good reason, because LLM agentic coding is extremely token-heavy, people simply wouldn't return to Claude Code for the second time i…

Yeah, subscriptions used to be extraordinarily generous. I miss those days, but the reinvigoration of open weight models is super exciting.

I'm still playing with the new Qwen3.6 35B and impressed, now DeepSeek v4 drops; with both base and instruction-tuned weights? There goes my weekend :P

Re: DeepSeek v4

#419

Post by ithkuil »

NitpickLawyer wrote: post #209
masafej536 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point taken but there isnt any western providers there yet. Power is cheaper in china.

As this is a new arch with tons of optimisations, it'll take some time for inference engines to support it properly, and we'll see more 3rd party providers offer it. Once that settles we'll have a median price for an optimised 1.6T model, and can "guesstimate" from there what the big labs can reasonably serve for the same price. But yeah, it's been said for a while that big labs are ok on API costs. The only unknown…

Is there evidence that frontier models at anthropic, openai or google or whatnot are not using comparable optimizations to draw down their coats and that their markup is just higher because they can?
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