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The Framework Desktop is a beast

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411–420 of 464 posts

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#411
post #398
post #82

I cancelled my Framework Desktop order and ordered a HP Z2 Mini G1a instead, the goal being to replace my Mac Studio as I've had it with Apple's arrogance and lousy software quality. The HP is much smaller, has ECC RAM and 10G Ethernet. Significantly more expensive, however.

Lack of ECC is what prevents the Framework Desktop from being anything else than an expensive toy.

Apple isn't using ECC either. If your only aim is to run LLMs how much do you actually care about ECC?

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#412
post #227

I’ve been agonizing over getting the Framework Desktop for weeks as a dev machine/local LLM box/home server. It checks a lot of boxes but the only reason to look at the Framework Desktop over something like a Minisforum MS-A2 is for the LLM and that seems super janky right now. So I guess I’ll wait a beat and see where we are later in the year.

Surely if running a local LLM is a goal, you're going to be disappointed by any small form factor desktop. Even an M4 Max is slow compared to a 5 year old rtx 3090, and the M4's only advantage is that it can run larger models, but very slowly [1].

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1jn5uto/macbook...

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main worry about all the Minisforum, Beelink, etc. PCs is: potential lack of UEFI firmware updates (does anyone have experience with how good they are with updates?) and potential backdoors in the UEFI firmware (either intentionally or unintentionally). A China-aligned/sponsored group has made an UEFI rootkit targetting ASUS/Gigabyte mainboards: https://www.spiceworks.com/it-security/vulnerability-managem... Why n…

I bought 3 Minisforum machines for a Kubernetes cluster and they didn't make it 11 months. They weren't even powered on most of that time. They just completely freeze with a black screen, and randomly enough to where every time I think maybe I figured out a fix it just crashes again a day later.

No issues with my UM 780 XTX, been running mine for about two years as a homelab, running k3s and a bunch of random VMs.

Are you sure you didn't buy an Intel one by any change? Because Intel is garbage.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mac Pro is the only Apple system that has user-replaceable storage. The Mac Mini & Studio both feature slotted storage modules, but Apple firmware locks it and so it can't be replaced much less upgraded.

There is no firmware lock, and here's the iFixIt guide for doing it. > How to Replace the SSD in your Mac mini (2024) https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+to+Replace+the+SSD+in+your+...

...normal M.2 SSDs are incompatible.

This guide is purely instructional for how to replace the SSD with another of the same type.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#415
Okay so why is the ram non upgradable again? Because this was the main reason I was holding to PC architecture (I'm considering non upgradable ram as a method of upselling for a ridiculous price of higher amounts)

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#416
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the pricing is pretty similar. Framework Desktop price with default selections, 32GB of RAM, 500 GB storage: $1,242.00 USD Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM, 512 GB storage: $1,199.00 Post changed a bit since I started replying, so: > For the purposes of running LLM models, a Mac Mini The M4 Max is the one that actually gives you a shit load of memory bandwidth. If you just get a normal M4 it's not going to be espec…

Macs can run Windows just fine, through Parallels. It’s more efficient at doing so than most ARM based windows machines on sale still. And I found software compatibility with Windows 11 for ARM to be a non issue nowadays.

I can't tell you how much I disagree with this take.

Microsoft's AMD64 emulator is slow and buggy compared to Rosetta, and you will need it a lot more, too. Many apps will need to rely on this, including programs many users will immediately try to use, like Visual Studio. Neither Visual Studio nor its compilers support running on an ARM host; it does seem to basically work, but is slow, which is not good considering Visual Studio is already not particularly fast. It will even display a message box warning you that it is not supported during setup, so you couldn't miss it (note that this applies to the Visual Studio compilers needed by Python and Node for installing packages with C extensions). MSys2 gave me a lot of trouble, too; the setup just doesn't seem to work on ARM64. Chocolatey often installs AMD64 or x86 binaries on ARM instead of native ones; sometimes native ones don't exist anyways. Third party thing that needs to load a kernel module? Don't bet on there being an ARM64 build of it; sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. WinFSP has a build, many hardware drivers I've looked at don't seem to (don't laugh: you can pass through USB devices, there is sense in installing actual hardware drivers.) I just set up a fresh copy of Parallels on an M3 Mac a couple months ago, I'm stopping now to be terse, this paragraph could easily be much longer. It would suffice to say that basic Windows software usage is a lot worse on Parallels than a native Windows AMD64 machine. Very useful, sure. At parity, oh no. Not close.

That's just the basics though. For GPU, Parallels does do some D3D11 translation which is (a lot!) better than nothing, but you are not getting native performance, you are not getting Vulkan support, and you are certainly not getting ROCm or CUDA or anything equivalent, so actually a lot of apps that practically need GPU acceleration are not going to be usable anyways. Even if a video game would run, anti-piracy and anti-cheat measures in lots of modern games detect and block users using VM software, not that you can expect that all of the games you want to run would even work anyways on ARM; plenty of games are known to be unstable and some don't work at all. There are other side effects of trying to do actual gaming in VMs in general, but I really think this gets the point across: Windows games and multimedia are significantly worse in Parallels than on a native machine.

Parallels filesystem bridging is impractical, it's not fast enough and it is buggy, i.e. running Bazel on bridged files will not work. This means you need to copy stuff back and forth basically all the time if you want to work on stuff natively but then test on Windows. Maybe this is partly Window's fault, but in any case it would suffice to say that workflows that involve Windows will be a lot clunkier than they would be on a native Windows machine.

I think these conclusions, that a native Windows machine would be a lot better for doing Windows things than a Mac running Parallels, is actually pretty obvious and self-evident, but reading what you said might literally give someone the opposite impression, that there is little reason to possibly want to run Windows. This is just misleading. Parallels is a great option as a last resort or to fill a gap, but if you have anything that regularly requires you to use Windows software or test on Windows, Parallels is not a very serious option. It may be cheaper than two machines in fiat currency, but probably not in sanity.

I don't know you, so I can't and won't, based on a single post, accuse you of being a fanboy. However, this genre of retort is a serious issue with fanboyism. It's easy to say "Windows? just use VMs!", but that's because for some people, actually just using Windows is probably not a serious option they would consider anyways; if the VM didn't work for a use case they'd back up and reconsider almost anything else before they reconsider their choice of OS or hardware vendor, but they probably barely need (if at all) a VM with Windows anyways. If this feels like a personal attack, I'd like to clarify that I am describing myself. I will not use Windows. I don't have a bare metal Windows machine in my house, and I do my best to limit Windows usage in VMs, too. Hell, I will basically only use macOS under duress these days, I'm not a fan of the direction it has gone either.

Still, I do not go around telling people that they should just go switch to Linux if they don't like Windows, and that Virtualbox or Wine will solve all of their problems, because that's probably not true and it's downright dishonest when deep down I know how well the experience will go. The honest and respectful thing to tell people about Linux is that it will suck, some of the random hardware you use might not work, some of your software won't work well under Wine or VMs, and you might spend more time troubleshooting. If they're still interested even after proper cautioning, chances are they'll actually go through with it and figure it out: people do not need to be sold a romantic vision, if anything they need the opposite, because they may struggle to foresee what kinds of problems they might run into. Telling people that virtual machines are a magic solution and you don't have to care about software compatibility is insane, and I say that with full awareness that Parallels is better than many of the other options in terms of user friendliness and out of the box capabilities.

I think the same thing is fair to do for macOS. With macOS there is the advantage that the entire experience is nicer as long as everything you want to do fits nicely into Apple's opinionated playbook and you buy into Apple's ecosystem, but I rarely hear people actually mention those latter caveats. I rarely hear people mention that, oh yeah, a lot of cool features I use only work because i use Apple hardware and services throughout my entire life, and your Android phone might not work as well, especially not with those expensive headphones I think you should get for your Mac. Fanboys of things have a dastardly way of only showing people the compelling side of things and leaving out the caveats. I don't appreciate this, and I think it ultimately has an overtone of thinking you know what someone wants better than they do. If someone is really going to be interested in living the Mac life, they don't need to be mislead to be compelled.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#417

Okay so why is the ram non upgradable again? Because this was the main reason I was holding to PC architecture (I'm considering non upgradable ram as a method of upselling for a ridiculous price of higher amounts)

I assume it's related to the following:

> The AMD 395+ uses unified memory, like Apple, so nearly all of it is addressable to be used by the GPU.

There's probably some fairly strict timing requirements etc on that. Still it'd be nice if they figured out a way to have swappable RAM.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#418
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Strix series of AMD uses a similar architecture as M series with massive memory bandwidth and big caches. That results in significantly better performance.

Isn't this the desktop architecture that Torvalds suggested years ago?

Faster and bigger SRAM cache is as complicated of a solution as adding moar boosters to your rocket. It works, but expensive. RP2040 uses ~8x more die space as its dual CPU just for the RAM.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#419
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only essential part of sockets vs solder is the metal-metal contacts. Yeah... And that’s a pretty damn big difference. A connector is always going to result in worse signal integrity than a high-quality solder joint in the real world.

Is that really the long pole in the tent, though? No doubt the most tightly integrated package can outperform a looser collection of components. But if we could shorten the distances, tighten the tolerances, and have the IC companies work on improving the whole landscape instead of just narrow, disjointed pieces slowly one at a time, then would the unsoldered connections still cause a massive performance loss or just…

Yes. Signal integrity is so finicky at frequencies DRAM operates that whether you drill the plated holes on boards that complete the circuit to go completely through the board or stop it halfway starts to matter due to signals permeating into the stubs of the holes and reflecting back into the trace causing interference. Adding a connector between RAM and CPU is like extending that long pole in the tent in the middle by inserting a stack of elephant into what is already shaped like an engine crankshaft found in a crashed wreck of a car.

Besides, no one strictly need mid-life upgradable RAMs. You're just wanting to be able to upgrade RAM later after purchase because it's cheaper upfront and also because it leaves less room for supply side for price gouging. Those aren't technical reasons you can't option a 2TB RAM on purchase and be done for 10 years.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They charge $900 CAD for 512 GB -> 2 TB SSD. The SSD is user replaceable, so you can replace it with a cheaper third party option.

The Mac Pro is the only Apple system that has user-replaceable storage. The Mac Mini & Studio both feature slotted storage modules, but Apple firmware locks it and so it can't be replaced much less upgraded.

This is incorrect. Mac minis (starting with the M4 model) and Mac Studios simply need to be restored via DFU mode following physical installation of another SSD (be it a larger one or simply a replacement) to function. There are third parties who have reverse engineered the design of the PCB and paired it with the same Hynix and Sandisk NAND chips Apple use.
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