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Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

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Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#411

Post by ysofunny »

lxgr wrote: post #132

There has got to be a way to penalize companies for attempting this kind of thing. Even just removing the charge without discussion isn't enough, as some people will be traveling on a corporate card they don't necessarily monitor closely, will confuse the charge for something else etc. Otherwise, I'd love to be able to preemptively and without any prior communication charge (way in excess of the room rate, of course!…

> put the burden of proof that everything was fine on them.

as if they need more incentives to surveil everything

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#412

Post by dangus »

blibble wrote: post #110
dangus wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the point is you can’t really refuse it. They won’t rent you the room unless you have a card on file authorized to make charges for incidentals.

the fact they have a card on file is irrelevant they're not allowed to make up charges wherever they feel like it just because they have your card details the payment doesn't settle for something like 6 months anyway

But of course you sign a contract upon check-in that says you will pay a fee if you’re caught smoking, and they’re paying a service to make a paper trail to that effect.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#413

Post by mrb »

boothby wrote: post #219
mrb wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that this image: https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/653a9fbd1075088b6c8f8bd3/... shows PM2.5 and CO2(ppm) it may imply they monitor particles and CO2 levels. My guess is it also monitors humidity, and temperature. Humidity helps distinguish smoke from water vapor (eg. steaming shower). CO2 sensors are generally pretty accurate, but PM2.5 sensors are notoriously prone to false spikes usually caused by dust in or…

Note that pm2.5 will also spike when you've used shampoo, perfume, deoderant, lotion, sunblock; if you use dryer sheets and you unpack your clothes, etc.

Exactly! So many ways to make PM2.5 spike. I didn't even know about shampoo and sunblock. I assume for sunblock it's the spray kind?

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#414

Post by gamblor956 »

consp wrote: post #7
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #4

Synopsis and excerpt: [Rest] markets itself as a way to "unlock a new revenue stream" with the help of a "robust algorithm" for detecting smoking. Hotels where these sensors are installed rack up complaints and negative reviews, after Rest sensors register false positives - thereby unlocking that revenue stream for the hotels. The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong…

> The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong. And errors reliably favor the institution that manages (and profits from) them. Doesn't the US have false advertisement rules/scam prevention? Around here one person would have to fight this in court to tumble the whole thing down as there is no way Rest can prove it's claim is airtight (pun intended) due to simple statisti…

You're not wrong. A single class action lawsuit would destroy Rest as a going concern, assuming there were enough false-positives generated to be an issue.

(Rest would have to demonstrate how its technology works in court in order to have any hope of defeating such a lawsuit. And as the hotel guests don't have contracts with Rest, they aren't bound by any arbitration agreements.)

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#415

Post by jmbwell »

recipe19 wrote: post #259

It reminds me of a hotel I stayed at that had a stocked mini-fridge. Removing any item from the fridge resulted in an automatic, silent charge. Putting it back did not remove the charge. So if you simply took something out to check it in, or if you wanted to chill your own beverage, they counted that as consuming the item. They removed the charges if you checked the bill and objected at checkout. But how many people…

I once had hotel staff show up right after I checked in saying they needed to check on my fridge. They spent a weird amount of time going over it. I hadn’t even looked at it, but it turned out to be one of these. Later I began to suspect they suspected me of messing with it. Now I kinda wish I had been

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#416

Post by fortran77 »

I see in Yelp reviews from other hotels that this is a very common problem now.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g60763-d93520-r9...

Look at this review from the "Park Central" in NY. The Management responded that the person agreed to this policy so it's tough luck:

> Thank you for sharing your feedback. It's concerning to hear about the experience you described. Park Central Hotel New York is dedicated to maintaining a smoke-free environment for all our guests. As per our website, smoking tobacco, pipes, vapes, e-cigarettes and marijuana are strictly prohibited within the hotel. NoiseAware is a smart device that allows hotel management to respond to smoking events without disrupting your stay. You hereby agree and consent to the use of such sensor in your room and acknowledge and agree that it is 100% privacy compliant and required by the hotel. By acknowledging the foregoing, you agree to waive any future claims related to the presence of the sensor in a room you may book. Tampering with the sensor is strictly prohibited. A non-refundable $500 smoking fee will apply should a smoking event occur inside the hotel guestroom. We regret that this policy did not meet your expectations. The consistency in handling such situations is important to us, and your experience will be reviewed to improve our protocols.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#417

Post by gamblor956 »

jfengel wrote: post #91
cpard wrote: post #42

From their FAQ: "Is it worth the investment? Absolutely. Hotels equipped with Rest have seen an 84x increase in smoking fine collection. Plus, our smoking detection technology helps prevent damage to rooms and reduce a number of future violations." Apparently there are way more people smoking than we thought there are or the sensor just generates a lot of false positives. The language they are using all over the site…

Is there that much smoking in hotels? Do they charge more for smoking rooms? A number like 84x suggests that it's basically zero now. That kinda makes sense. The only one who would notice is the cleaning staff, and relying on their word for "it smelled like smoke" sounds like a way to get a chargeback. They'd call you on it only if they were forced to take the room out of rotation to air it out. So maybe there are a…

Is there that much smoking in hotels?

Surprisingly, yes. Smoking experienced a significant uptick during COVID.

Post-COVID, a lot of the housekeeping staff wear masks when cleaning guest rooms, so they're not always able to notice the smells that a guest would notice upon first entering the room.

I've had to get 3 out of my last 10 hotel rooms changed because the previous occupant smoked. On my last business trip, this resulted in an upgrade to a suite because they had no more regular rooms available.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#418

Post by ericmay »

seszett wrote: post #393
ericmay wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a common practice in most western countries and can confirm for you a list of a dozen or more hotels ranging from $100/night to $1000/night that do this in countries ranging from Ireland to France to Japan. It's really no big deal and is extremely common. In fact, France as I discovered does this at the gas stations where they put $200 or so authorizations on your card for absolutely no good reason. There ar…

> France as I discovered does this at the gas stations where they put $200 or so authorizations on your card for absolutely no good reason. It's the same here but I'm not sure how it could work another way? They have to make sure you have the money to pay for the fuel you're pumping, it doesn't seem weird to me. I can't imagine a pump that allows you to pump as you wish and then just begs you to pay. That works for t…

I think maybe what happens is they tap your cards fully possible authorization limit and if you end up trying to get gas multiple times in a short time period (24/48 hours) you can't use your card because they can't hit it for the full limit.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#419

Post by gamblor956 »

laborcontract wrote: post #14
Animats wrote: post #12

Here's a "vape detector" with more explaination.[1] It contains an air particulates detector and a CO2 detector, plus humidity, temperature, and noise and light sensors. They're probably looking for particulates and CO2 ramp up, hence the "algorithm". It's not clear how accurate this is, but it's not mysterious. There's a version sold to schools that adds "bullying detector" capability. This adds detection of "keywor…

It sounds ludicrous to say out loud, but if you're staying in a Hyatt hotel, it's best not to take a hot shower until this issue is resolved. The steam from the showers tend to make these types of particle sensors go wild.

The issue is not a Hyatt issue. It is an issue with a specific hotel that happens to be a Hyatt.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#420

Post by scoofy »

dboreham wrote: post #408
scoofy wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, god, this tired nonsense. Yes, obviously, it's ruled by the people. We have parties, we vote, anyone can run for office. Anyone can vote third party, and they occasionally even win. That your neighbors don't share your views does not make it undemocratic. It's not perfect, but it's democratic. It's like people can no longer imagine living under a totalitarian state... where you don't even get a vote, and if you d…

> totalitarian state... where you don't even get a vote Quick note that totalitarian states often have elections in which the population is allowed to vote.

I've read Popular Dictatorships. I'm not naive that they care about public opinion and have "elections." Having unfree and unfair elections is not the same things as having elections in a real sense. Party based FPTP elections are generally free and fair. There are real concerns about gerrymandering, but for the most part, even a gerrymandered area is effective as a political pressure release valve.

Aleksandar Matovski. Popular Dictatorships. https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/popular-dictatorships/D...

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