Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors” • Hacker News Board

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#91

Post by jfengel » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 1:50 PM UTC

cpard wrote: post #42

From their FAQ: "Is it worth the investment? Absolutely. Hotels equipped with Rest have seen an 84x increase in smoking fine collection. Plus, our smoking detection technology helps prevent damage to rooms and reduce a number of future violations." Apparently there are way more people smoking than we thought there are or the sensor just generates a lot of false positives. The language they are using all over the site…

Is there that much smoking in hotels? Do they charge more for smoking rooms?

A number like 84x suggests that it's basically zero now. That kinda makes sense. The only one who would notice is the cleaning staff, and relying on their word for "it smelled like smoke" sounds like a way to get a chargeback. They'd call you on it only if they were forced to take the room out of rotation to air it out.

So maybe there are a lot of people smoking just a little (perhaps a joint), and getting away with it. That might make a number like 84x work.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#92

Post by scarface_74 » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 1:50 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #45

burnt-resistor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines: "Hold my beer!"

"Delta moves to eliminate set prices, use AI to set your personal ticket price" , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44596355

Delta has never had set prices and this is fake outrage. Airlines have used algorithms since deregulation in the 70s to set prices. The “algorithm” use to be simpler based on “fair classes”. A fair class is not a simple - Main, C+ and FC. Two people sitting in main can have different fair classes.

https://www.alternativeairlines.com/fare-basis-codes-explain...

Of course as computers have gotten more sophisticated, the machine learning/revenue optimization rules have too.

For instance it costs less for me to fly Delta from MCO (Orlando) -> ATL -> SJO (San Jose Costa Rica) than it does our friends to fly from ATL -> SJO when we are both flying the same second leg.

There are other tricks to like booking a Delta flight via AirFrance or Virgin Airlines domestically cheaper.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#93

Post by tialaramex » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 1:51 PM UTC

jdenning wrote: post #18

This seems like outright fraud - how can they charge a cleaning fee and then perform no cleaning?

Leases often work this way. In theory it's illegal in the UK (for a home, businesses are assumed to be big boys who can negotiate on equal footing) but it's still pretty common to be charged when you move out. Specifically UK law says "reasonable wear and tear" is just an expected cost of people living in a house you let to them - so e.g. they're going to wear out carpet after some years, but a cigar burn is not OK, the walls won't look pristine but there shouldn't be graffiti, that sort of thing. They should vacuum floors but it's not reasonable to expect dust to magically vanish from every nook.

In practice in many cases you move out leaving the place very habitable, you get told they "had" to clean up your mess, and it's a suspiciously round number like £80 and they have plenty more "necessary" charges like this. In theory in the UK they're required to provide receipts showing their actual expense, but in practice they're looking at this as free revenue and most of their clients can't fight back.

I was buying, freeing me from the obvious revenge if I say "Fuck you" but there were a lot of other things to do for the move and having fought them down from the original outrageous fees they wanted I gave up although I did get as far as reporting them to their regulator and threatening legal action. In hindsight I'm quite sure I could have got to $0 and possibly also got the most senior woman who was straight up lying and clearly had done all this many times removed from the register of people fit to let out properties, but I didn't and I feel bad about that.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#94

Post by jfengel » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 1:53 PM UTC

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #89

So someone does not smoke in their room but they’re charged for cleaning anyway because a third party (Rest) told the hotel that they smoked in their room. What sort of evidence should one gather during their stay to make the strongest possible (defamation? fraud?) case against Rest? (Not that anyone wants to do that on their trip, just curious about the legal implications.)

Would it work if it were real time? You light up, and five minutes later a manager knocks.

Dunno about the legality of refusing to open the door, but it does sound like a way to get banned from a hotel chain.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#95

Post by ralferoo » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 1:56 PM UTC

shawn_w wrote: post #55

lisper wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Siping?

Cutting into a tire to improve traction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siping_(rubber)

Just from the description, that sounds like a case could be made for willful property damage if they did it without authorisation.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#96

Post by dangus » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 2:00 PM UTC

BlackFly wrote: post #24

I'd refuse to pay the charge on check out. If they charged my card anyways I would demand a refund and inform the consumer protection agency, wait 30 days and issue the chargeback. Luckily these things work well in my nation.

Well the point is you can’t really refuse it. They won’t rent you the room unless you have a card on file authorized to make charges for incidentals.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#97

Post by vkou » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 2:01 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #91

cpard wrote: post #42

From their FAQ: "Is it worth the investment? Absolutely. Hotels equipped with Rest have seen an 84x increase in smoking fine collection. Plus, our smoking detection technology helps prevent damage to rooms and reduce a number of future violations." Apparently there are way more people smoking than we thought there are or the sensor just generates a lot of false positives. The language they are using all over the site…

Is there that much smoking in hotels? Do they charge more for smoking rooms? A number like 84x suggests that it's basically zero now. That kinda makes sense. The only one who would notice is the cleaning staff, and relying on their word for "it smelled like smoke" sounds like a way to get a chargeback. They'd call you on it only if they were forced to take the room out of rotation to air it out. So maybe there are a…

A number like 84x implies that it's almost entirely false positives.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#98

Post by jml78 » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 2:03 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #88

sneak wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AmEx used to be good about doing chargebacks generally, but they once sided with the merchant during covid when I was sold an impossible itinerary and cost me $2k. Since then I realized that I won’t always be able to do a chargeback, and I am much more cautious with vendors.

I think there are exceptions about "exigent circumstances" and COVID was considered one. My EU flight was not refunded as well despite the EU having strong protections. The airlines, at the time, were given a life-line. I think these once in-a-decade or more events can be swallowed. But wouldn't be happy with a regular occurrence.

Which is crazy to me. I had purchased international airline tickets 9 months prior to COVID.

Covid happened and everything was cancelled. The airline refused to refund, only give credit. The issue is that it was on an airline that was useless to me because this trip was cancelled and we were going to be rescheduling.

Did a chargeback with Apple even though I was past the date, they still gave me my money back. I was shocked

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#99

Post by xg15 » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 2:06 PM UTC

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #89

So someone does not smoke in their room but they’re charged for cleaning anyway because a third party (Rest) told the hotel that they smoked in their room. What sort of evidence should one gather during their stay to make the strongest possible (defamation? fraud?) case against Rest? (Not that anyone wants to do that on their trip, just curious about the legal implications.)

From the thread, it sounds as if they don't even pretend this is about cleaning, they're just saying "we're a smoke-free hotel, so smoking costs $500 as a punitive measure, period".

I wonder if they could legally separate this from any real-world activities completely? During check-in, put a clause in the contract "if our partner company says so, you have to pay $500 extra. By signing, you agree to that" - without any reference to smoking at all.

I hope this wouldn't be legal, but it sounds like it could be.

Re: Hyatt Hotels are using algorithmic Rest “smoking detectors”

#100

Post by DudeOpotomus » Sat, Jul 19, 2025, 2:09 PM UTC

If I got one of these I'd pay it and never, ever, ever stay at any hotel owned by the entity again. Being that I spend $25k-50k a year on hotels, their loss is a small hotel's gain.

In fact, whoever does this will lose my business ahead of time as I will never stay at any hotel that uses this service. A few minutes on Tripadvisor and you'll know.

Such incredible business myopia. Hotels are one of the few businesses that loyalty is not only a boon, but a necessity for survival. Without brand loyalty, hotels suffer.