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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#411

Post by kshahkshah »

tw04 wrote: post #201
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

mid 100k salary... not worth it for that level of stress

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#412

Post by lmm »

ch4s3 wrote: post #192
XCabbage wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it didn't have race-based questions, which I don't think anyone claimed. Rather it had totally arbitrary questions, not related to merit in any plausible way, and a score cutoff that made it highly likely you'd fail if you hadn't been tipped off with the correct answers. For instance, there is a 15-point question for which you have to answer that your worst grade in high school was in Science, and a separate…

I don't understand how this isn't a giant public scandal. Is there something I'm missing here?

Whose interests would it serve for it to be a giant public scandal? Which of those groups have the resources to make it one?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#413

Post by RandomBacon »

smath wrote: post #246

I might have missed this in the article - how is the pay level set for ATC staff? In a free market economy price is the magical signal that is supposed to increase supply when there is unmet demand.

There is a formula that is negotiated with the union. See Appendix A in the collective bargaining agreement:

https://www.natca.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2016NATCACB...

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#414

Post by pimlottc »

legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

> - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications

This stands out to me:

> Be under the age of 31

> Applicants must demonstrate distant and near vision of 20/20 or better in each eye separately. The use of bifocal contact lenses for the correction of near vision is unacceptable.

This almost seems like a catch-22 give than approx most adults (80%+) will experience presbyopia by their mid-40s. So even if you're a qualified candidate, you've likely only got 10-15 years max before you are disqualified.

More broadly, I suspect some of these vision requirements could be reconsidered in the face of improved display technology and UX improvements (e.g. accommodations for certain forms of partial colorblindness).

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#415

Post by lmm »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #115
mayneack wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems they clawed back the offer or never gave it in the first place. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-administration-exempt...

So what does that really mean for those he outright fired? They didn't "resign".no one who (stupidly) responded to that email to resign would have taken any effect anyway.

In a country with the rule of law, employers can't generally take away these kind of things when they've promised them - this got Musk in to trouble when he made a generous severance offer in Europe and had to actually follow through on it.

In America? Who knows.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#416

Post by V99 »

The first problem is that everybody who wants to do the job needs to go through the FAA academy in Oklahoma, which is seriously limited by physical & instructor capacity. So only a couple thousand people a year can work their way through there, no matter how many are willing to do the job.

So first we need more training capacity, and they already have trouble hiring and retaining instructors. This is a more direct place you can throw more money at now.

A start would be moving some of the primary training to the control centers. There's more than one of them, spread around the country, and they already have their own significant training departments.

A significant fraction of people who get into the academy end up not making the cut. Then another good fraction "wash out" during extensive training for the specific airport/center they end up in.

It's a very difficult job and nothing they've tried before is very good at predicting who's going to be successful at it quickly/cheaply.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#417

Post by RandomBacon »

ctrlp wrote: post #307

Anyone remember the movie Pushing Tin with John Cusack and Billy Bob Thornton?

ATC here, I love that documentary :-)

(Opinions are my own and not necessarily that of the FAA.)

I have some wild stories, but unfortunately sharing them would dox me.

The most inaccurate thing though is a transfer CPC (fully-certified controller at their previous facility) plugging in and being able to work without months of training in that area.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#418

Post by boredatoms »

insom wrote: post #377
chii wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is an ENT surgeon position open in a rural hospital outside of fresno CA that pays 1.1M dollars/year while 1.1m/yr sounds like a lot, it isn't the right number to consider. The right number is the difference between this job, and a similar job else where that has better facilities/amenities and comfort. If said surgeons who would qualify could've gotten a similar job in a major city for a similar amount of mo…

The commenter did say up to 3x, so up to ~730K higher than that job in a major city (with possibly better facilities but who knows)

It sounds like it needs to be higher than 3x then

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#419

Post by Gud »

chii wrote: post #363
throwaway2037 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people have a low view of lawyers and investment bankers.

Those "low view" is out of jealousy and the idea that they're "doing evil" to get that money. It's a personal bias, which i personally also would ignore. I have respect for lawyers, and i have respect for investment bankers (who make huge merger/acquisition deals work).

It’s not out of jealousy.

Many people believe investment bankers are a net negative for society.

In the case of lawyers, a necessary evil. I have respect for people, not a profession.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#420

Post by DrFalkyn »

Reason077 wrote: post #251
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

> "The fundamentals and technology of the job have not changed in decades, despite air traffic exploding in recent years" Isn't this, ultimately, the real problem? Improved technology with radically more automation would both improve safety and reduce workload on controllers. What's really needed is some sort of "next-generation ATC" moonshot project. But of course, in such a safety-critical and risk-averse domain, g…

There are some small airports that don’t have an ATC. You could start with those
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