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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#411

Post by throwaway1777 »

tpoacher wrote: post #387

One thing I always find interesting / amusing is how the timing of certain types of post here on HN is in a sense far more informative (e.g. by implication as to "what is the current zeitgeist that has suddenly made this "news" or relevant again?), than the linked articles themselves. E.g. crablang wasn't exactly announced yesterday for this to be newsworthy in itself; but an HN top post on crablang almost serves as…

This is the power of the media and why people fight over it so much. Whenever you see content you should not only question the content itself but also ask “why am I seeing this now”?

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#413

Post by munificent »

MaKey wrote: post #350
mschuster91 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does remote work cause the need for CoC? No, CoCs became a trend way before covid made remote work possible for the masses. They initially were demanded by project members after high-profile scandals of some kind, usually racist or otherwise discriminatory bullshit, sexual assault on conferences or bullying (Linus Torvalds for example used to be infamous for his language), and then other projects (or their members)…

I dislike CoCs because they aren't what they claim to be: Instruments to protect people. They are tools of power, ready to be used when needed to bully or oust someone. I therefore really don't understand the broad acceptance or even call for Code of Conducts.

> Instruments to protect people. They are tools of power, ready to be used when needed to bully or oust someone.

They are both.

A CoC, like other weapons, is more or less value-free. The CoC itself doesn't care what you point it at. It's a question of who is wielding it, and who they're wielding it against.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#414

Post by dunham »

slashdev wrote: post #396
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. I see it as: there's a finite amount of people who choose to dedicate their unpaid free time contributing to making Rust better (working on fixing bugs, new features, etc.) This seems like fragmentation which basically will slow down progress. Now, obviously the people who choose to dedicate their free time to open source software are enti…

On the other hand it could become a place to test ideas and port the winners over to rust. It’s not necessarily negative.

I think this essentially happened with XEmacs. It's been a while (since the 90's), but I recall that they had a different architecture and more advanced font support. I believe the latter was folded back into Emacs eventually.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#415

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

nindalf wrote: post #192

This fork promises "All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy!" Compelling, until you realise that all the commits are auto-merges of rust-lang/rust's main branch. Which means the same teams doing the same work, under a different name. Rust is experiencing growing pains because they're still figuring out a governance structure that works for everyone. They want to simultaneously keep th…

> This fork promises "All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy!" Compelling, until you realise that all the commits are auto-merges of rust-lang/rust's main branch. Which means the same teams doing the same work, under a different name.

It started out specifically as a reaction to Rust's take on trademarks, so shipping the exact same code with a different name was the point.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#416

Post by Twirrim »

dijit wrote: post #381
Twirrim wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it involves people, it will be political. There's absolutely zero way to avoid it short of it being a single-person project (and arguably even _that_ will be Political at the very least).

Ah yes "there is always x, so why shy from this x?", I wonder if there's a named logical fallacy for this, I think the closest might be "Moral Equivalence" There will always be drama, there will always be politics, but I wonder how entities manage to graze by with broad support in those situations, possibly by being equitable, consistent and transparent? Just guessing. Python doesn't have so much regarding internal s…

> Ah yes "there is always x, so why shy from this x?", I wonder if there's a named logical fallacy for this, I think the closest might be "Moral Equivalence"

I absolutely did not say that, and would not say that. The person I was responding to was making a comment saying that a language shouldn't be political.

My point was that it's impossible to have a language that isn't political, simply by nature of it involving humans. They will disagree. They will need to make decisions. They will change their behaviour to get what they want, either consciously or subconsciously.

> Python doesn't have so much regarding internal struggles of power

What....? Python has all sorts of political crap going on. Take a look through the dev forums and mailing lists. Look at the various groups and subgroups of developers, the way they interact and organise around different perspectives etc.

There was a whole bunch of that leading up to Guido's eventual stepping down as BDFL, after the long fight to get PEP 572 out (walrus operator). He even called it out in his stepping down email.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#417

Post by _nalply »

lloeki wrote: post #152
weinzierl wrote: post #55

I disagree with the general sentiment in this thread that this is a useless immature move. Sure, Crab will almost certainly not replace Rust, but that is not the goal. The ultimate objective is to influence Rust stakeholders' decisions. This is similar to a strike where ultimately your goal is not to destroy the company or to quit and leave, but to achieve better conditions. In both cases it sometimes works and somet…

cue node.js - io.js and gcc - egcs

I started reading up the history of gcc. It's really fascinating. Stallman made the first release 1987. This means gcc is 36 years old if you count the first release as birth.

https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/History

I want to find out more about egcs. TIL that there was a fork of gcc.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#418

Post by tpoacher »

pxc wrote: post #393
tpoacher wrote: post #387

One thing I always find interesting / amusing is how the timing of certain types of post here on HN is in a sense far more informative (e.g. by implication as to "what is the current zeitgeist that has suddenly made this "news" or relevant again?), than the linked articles themselves. E.g. crablang wasn't exactly announced yesterday for this to be newsworthy in itself; but an HN top post on crablang almost serves as…

It was posted in the comments to the 'Why I'm leaving Rust'¹ post that made it to the front page two days ago. At that point it was predictable that Crab would make it to the front page in a day or two. Comments with links on front page items tend to turn into successful submissions within a day or two like that. Or rather, a fair number of front page items at any time turn out to have been preceded that way. -- 1: h…

Agreed that this is one of the major mechanisms. But that's not the point I'm making here. It's a more general point regarding how the implicit "Why now?" question is often more newsworthy than the explicit "What?" being reported.

And also the fact that, unless the reader is willing to make a conscious connection to that fact, the lack of nuance often serves to swing a discussion in the opposite direction to what conscious examination of the timing would suggest (e.g. via the framing effect).

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#419

Post by evilotto »

arp242 wrote: post #122
pietro72ohboy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. Could you elaborate on because I'm increasingly seeing Stallman being thrown around as a bogeyman who impeded FOSS progress for years if not decades and I really dislike this trend. It seems that his personal views (which I do not support) and eccentricity is being conflated with his contributions to FOSS. I will preface this by noting that this is "my belief…

I wrote about this a few years ago in [1]. I think some of the more recent personal attacks have been unfair and misguided, but criticism of Stallman goes back decades. Why does X use the MIT license and not GPL? Because they found Stallman too difficult to talk to (see quote in the article). Many prominent people involved in Free Software have been at odds with Stallman for a long time. When I first heard of Stallma…

X is an interesting case. It was released with a permissive license and the Free Software people argued against it saying that the vendors (Sun, IBM, HP, SGI, etc.) would take it and make a dozen different incompatible versions without sharing any improvements. And that is exactly what happened. The state-of-the-art was arguably held back by a decade because of the permissive license.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#420

Post by colesantiago »

insanitybit wrote: post #254
colesantiago wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forks of a large project seldom survive. The fork died. that is the point. goal or no goal.

ok but that's a terrible point

terrible or not my point still stands, and it is a truer point now that nobody is using the fork that was io.js.
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