Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans • Hacker News Board

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#411

Post by rcarr » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 9:55 AM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #399

rcarr wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely amazing to me that I can go vegan for an entire year and heavyset_go can also try being vegan and you and the rest of the vegan brigade want to now lecture us with vegan subreddits and recipe blogs. I am absolutely aware of what the vegan protein sources are as I am sure, given their username, heavyset_go is. It is this kind of militant mentality which is why so many people roll their eyes whenever t…

> It is this kind of militant mentality which is why so many people roll their eyes But, you know, you're the one who selected a lifestyle where you value your muscles above life of innocent beings, above the future of the nature and cause immense suffering with every meal you take. You're killing innocent beings. Not just the ones you consume, you're also the reason why wildlife is dissapearing. > The protein source…

> But, you know, you're the one who selected a lifestyle where you value your muscles above life of innocent beings,

No I valued a lifestyle where I felt healthier and could perform at a higher level outside of the gym. But performing at that level requires me to train hard in the gym otherwise I am prone to bouts of depression.

> You're killing innocent beings.

So are you going to act like the food chain doesn’t exist anymore and all animals are innocent beings who don’t eat other animals. That’s some Disney Princess shit.

> Not just the ones you consume, you're also the reason why wildlife is disappearing.

Ok but you can’t label all of this at the door of omnivores.

Presumably you are typing this on a device which mined the earth for rare minerals so I hope you are willing to give that device up. And if you have any kind of vehicle other than a bicycle I hope you’re willing to give that up too. When you get sick, I hope you are willing to eschew medicine as it has almost certainly been tested on animals (most likely mice) at some point before making it to market.

Every time new construction is undertaken habitats are destroyed. So I hope you are ok sleeping in a tent and not a house or do you just want the rest of the growing population to sleep rough whilst you are excluded from having to make this particular sacrifice? You’re also guilty of killing animals unless you’re living in a hut wearing home spun robes. It’s just more abstract for you so you can delude yourself into thinking you’re one of the holy ones.

> When somebody points out that you don't have to do that, you counter argue that it's inconvenient to prepare vegan meal? As if your convenience was somehow relevant

First you’ve cherry picked the sentence and disregarded the rest. And yes, my convenience (and everyone else’s) is relevant. Humans are wired to conserve energy. I am not going to waste my energy unnecessarily if there are more convenient options available. Presumably you do the same or are you still taking your clothes down to the river to scrub them rather than using the washing machine?

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#412

Post by hayst4ck » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 9:57 AM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #326

hayst4ck wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

Chick culling is certainly gruesome, but not so shocking to me. It terms of animal suffering, I have seen much worse, still not enough to stop me from eating meat though. I've seen videos of these chick grinders, from fully live chick to ground meat, it takes something like 1/10 of a second, I am not even sure their brain have time to register what happens before there is no brain anymore. Culling also happens very e…

I think what really hits me about it, is that the male chicks aren't even product. They are just the exhaust out of the meat engine.

It's casual destruction of life because it's a byproduct. It is as good evidence as any that there are no karmic forces and reality does not care.

I agree though. I would rather be the chick than a farmed chicken. In terms of deaths in the animal kingdom, it's probably pretty hard to beat fast and certain without prolonged striving or suffering.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#413

Post by rcarr » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 9:58 AM UTC

rafaelero wrote: post #320

rcarr wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I stated: > The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. The people longest living at the adventist church are pesco-vegetarians which are not vegetarians as far as I’m concerned. Also as far as I’m aware, there is no significant difference between the Adventist church goers in terms of life expectancy and the other blue zones, which are also consuming…

Again, there is no statistically significant difference between fish-eaters and vegetarians.

You’re cherry picking data to suit your argument is what you’re doing.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#414

Post by rcarr » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 10:04 AM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #400

rcarr wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need only few % of the population protesting in the streets (less than 5% imho) to topple an authoritarian regime. I know who my money would be on if vegans decide they want to try and overthrow the country. > we can't pretend forever that (negative) externalities don't exist. I agree but like I said, I think petri dish meat is the answer which would most likely be even less resource intensive than plant based…

We don't have time to wait until lab based proteins exists, it may take decades until we have the technology and until it spreads through whole world. If we'll succeed in making them, it may take decades. Like finding the bugs to eat the plastics. That also takes forever. And meanwhile the show goes on ... and on ...

Ok well good luck fighting in the civil war that’s about to break out in whatever country you try to enforce your strict no animal products policy. My money is on the people who don’t mind killing things to win.

Obviously all the death will significantly reduce the population so that’s one way of temporarily solving the problem. Although the loss of brain power might set back finding the actual solutions that we’ve already mentioned so swings and roundabouts.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#415

Post by birksherty » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 10:06 AM UTC

hayst4ck wrote: post #296

fnimick wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Militant-ism isn't going to win people over. The great lie of capitalism is pushing a theory of personal responsibility rather than legislating these problems away. There are so many elements of my life that cause harm to other beings that addressing the harm could be a full time job. Killing rodents, mosquitos, and ants is something most people will do without a second thought. I've sprayed a wasp nest with wasp kil…

> rodents, mosquitos, and ants

> How much animal testing has been done by scientists on all types of animals to have what we have today?

Nothing compared to what we are doing to meat animals. We make these animals to eat like a machine. All these are to hide your guilt.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#416

Post by rcarr » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 10:06 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #358

myshpa wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need only few % of the population protesting in the streets (less than 5% imho) to topple an authoritarian regime. I suppose with sufficient vegan base the political will to remove (huge) subsidies for meat/dairy industry will materialize. It simply doesn't make sense that meat burger/milk is cheaper than plant-based burger/milk now. You need 100x more land to produce same amount of calories (beef vs. peas). Remo…

People act like it will be easy to remove the huge subsidies from these bad industries, but imo the fact that these subsidies are so huge and so ridiculous from anyone from the outset to see is proof that they are not going anywhere. These lobbies are seriously entrenched and probably as powerful as they come. Plus there is more that a cow is used for than just ground beef. 99% of the cow is used for things. You'd ha…

> these subsidies are so huge and so ridiculous

They are huge, they are not ridiculous. They literally stop wars breaking out.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#417

Post by rcarr » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 10:16 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #355

rcarr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One day, whilst eating a burger in a pub and thinking about the food chain, I ran a thought experiment in my head. I imagined being hungry and someone offering me a choice between a ham sandwich or a vegan sandwich. I could only select the ham sandwich if I was willing to shoot a pig in the head. I wouldn’t have to butcher the pig or anything else, just be responsible for its death. I decided that I would choose the…

Thinking about something getting shot in the head isn't too helpful, because you could realistically run a similar moral exercise on just about every thing you encounter in modern life, and find that somewhere, something along the line from raw material to finished product is getting either literally or proverbially shot in the head.

Yes, the killing is being done everywhere throughout modern life just at different levels of distance removed from the killing. I believe the thought experiment to be relevant in this case as there is a more direct chain between the death of the animal and my consumption of the end product. It provided me with insight as well as the year long experiment.

I think it’s a brilliant thought experiment as (providing you’re not completely desensitised) it makes you sit and think whether you truly want something or if there are alternatives out there you’d be happy with it. And it forces you to take personal responsibility for the consequences of the things you do want.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#418

Post by myshpa » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 10:45 AM UTC

rcarr wrote: post #411

myshpa wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is this kind of militant mentality which is why so many people roll their eyes But, you know, you're the one who selected a lifestyle where you value your muscles above life of innocent beings, above the future of the nature and cause immense suffering with every meal you take. You're killing innocent beings. Not just the ones you consume, you're also the reason why wildlife is dissapearing. > The protein source…

> But, you know, you're the one who selected a lifestyle where you value your muscles above life of innocent beings, No I valued a lifestyle where I felt healthier and could perform at a higher level outside of the gym. But performing at that level requires me to train hard in the gym otherwise I am prone to bouts of depression. > You're killing innocent beings. So are you going to act like the food chain doesn’t exi…

> otherwise I am prone to bouts of depression

It sounds you're just suppresing your depression. Maybe you should direct your efforts to solving the problems causing you depression. It will catch you sooner or later, you know.

> like the food chain doesn’t exist anymore

We're at the top of the food chain, destroying everything below us. And we're no longer part of the nature, we're above it. If you feel you're like a lion, why don't you lick your balls and eat your young?

> Presumably you are typing this on a device ...

Nobody argues we should go back to the stone age. It's not possible and not practical. Eating plant-based is, and it solves a lot of current problems (co2, methane, biodiversity loss, droughts, needless suffering, ...).

> Every time new construction ...

Urban and built-up land is 1.5 mil km2, land for animal agriculture is 40 mil. km2 ( https://ourworldindata.org/land-use ).

> First you’ve cherry picked the sentence and disregarded the rest

I found there nothing of value to comment on, sorry.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#419

Post by myshpa » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 10:59 AM UTC

goatlover wrote: post #382

virgildotcodes wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a planet filled with millions of species, is it ethically defensible to consider these matters from the perspective of just one?

The other millions of species don't have an ethical perspective. But okay, lets grant their perspective of wanting to survive and reproduce, behave in the way they evolved to. Fine, but how do you balance the perspectives of those millions? We still need to plow and harvest large fields even if we all go vegan. We still have to deal with pests in our homes. Should we kill a bunch of cows to make way for native specie…

> We still need to plow and harvest large fields even if we all go vegan

We would need just 25% of those fields. The rest can be returned to the nature. [0]

> Should we kill a bunch of cows to make way for native species

But we're killing them already, at astonishing quantities. It's enough to not make new ones, the problem will solve itself.

> okay when the feral goats in the Galapagos were machine gunned down

Maybe don't introduce farm animals where they don't belong?

> kill off all the feral cats, or just let them continue killing birds and small mammals

Give the birds & mammals a chance to live and procreate, by giving them enough habitat to live in. In time nature will solve the feral cats problems - when bigger predators appear.

> Is it okay to spray for mosquitos and ticks

No, because you're spraying poisons and killing other species as well, and reducing the human health. That's not practical. But you know, biodiversity is the solution [1].

When you kill predators (owls, foxes, coyottes ...), mice proliferate. More mice, more ticks. Let the mice eating predators return and ticks numbers goes down.

Mosquitos? Don't spray poisons and let number of amphibians/fish go up. The problem solved.

[0] If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares - https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

[1] The biggest little farm - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8969332/ - not a scientific resource, but pretty illustrative

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#420

Post by rcarr » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 11:14 AM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #418

rcarr wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, you know, you're the one who selected a lifestyle where you value your muscles above life of innocent beings, No I valued a lifestyle where I felt healthier and could perform at a higher level outside of the gym. But performing at that level requires me to train hard in the gym otherwise I am prone to bouts of depression. > You're killing innocent beings. So are you going to act like the food chain doesn’t exi…

> otherwise I am prone to bouts of depression It sounds you're just suppresing your depression. Maybe you should direct your efforts to solving the problems causing you depression. It will catch you sooner or later, you know. > like the food chain doesn’t exist anymore We're at the top of the food chain, destroying everything below us. And we're no longer part of the nature, we're above it. If you feel you're like a…

> It sounds you're just suppresing your depression. Maybe you should direct your efforts to solving the problems causing you depression. It will catch you sooner or later, you know.

Your arrogance is truly astounding. Not only do you know what’s best for my diet and lifestyle apparently you know what’s best for my mental health as well. I’m going to go eat a burger today just because of your attitude. Good luck with your crusade.