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Daddy isn’t coming back

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Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New anon account for obvs reasons... > My nephew hung himself at 14 years old after a doctor thought he had ADHD and gave him ritalin. It was a misdiagnosis. I have ADHD and the first to get diagnosed in my family, and now that I'm dealing reasonably well with that, strongly suspect other ASD-related traits: obsessionality, sensory issues, social problems, but these lightly enough that I've been able to make it throu…

How is your 13 year old with the social stuff? As someone who seems to be similar to your son (although I'm much older - and a software developer like you), I would comment that it is having strong social connections that brings purpose to my life, and the degree to which I've been integrated in a social community has correlated strongly with times of my life where I've been happy versus times in my life where I've f…

He has strong social anxiety if it's even more than a moderately sized group of people. But very much at home and happy when it's a small group of people he knows well, or one-on-one.

The same is true for both my brother and myself... I have a number of quite close friends, yet my preferred interaction is one-on-one.

Couldn't agree more that it's strong social connections that bring purpose. He's struggling on that front being out of school, but school brings other troubles.

(The other aspect of purpose is a sense of achievement in one's work... that's a struggle too.)

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New anon account for obvs reasons... > My nephew hung himself at 14 years old after a doctor thought he had ADHD and gave him ritalin. It was a misdiagnosis. I have ADHD and the first to get diagnosed in my family, and now that I'm dealing reasonably well with that, strongly suspect other ASD-related traits: obsessionality, sensory issues, social problems, but these lightly enough that I've been able to make it throu…

Ritalin always worked great for me, but immediately gave my brother debilitating OCD.

Do you have any thoughts on my view expressed above that stimulants allow one to focus... but if that focus is (mis)directed towards something negative it can cause bigger issues than it solves? I'm curious about what differed between you and your brother's situation.

For instance, I still struggle with procrastination at work and avoiding starting tasks... I can often take my dose and then proceed to hyperfocus on social media for hours on end. But once I am working, it's great. I first noticed the impacts of the meds when I could actually enjoy just playing with the kids and not constantly battle with feeling like I should be doing something else.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#413
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New anon account for obvs reasons... > My nephew hung himself at 14 years old after a doctor thought he had ADHD and gave him ritalin. It was a misdiagnosis. I have ADHD and the first to get diagnosed in my family, and now that I'm dealing reasonably well with that, strongly suspect other ASD-related traits: obsessionality, sensory issues, social problems, but these lightly enough that I've been able to make it throu…

Thanks for sharing this. They are finding there is so much genetic overlap for these disorders which is why you see so much similarity in your child, yet there will be differences that might be influenced by his mothers genetics. My father was no doubt an Aspie, he was a poor Italian boy in NYC but somehow attained a full ride to NYU when he was 16. My mother, a poor Polish girl who ran away from the coal country to…

> They are finding there is so much genetic overlap for these disorders which is why you see so much similarity in your child, yet there will be differences that might be influenced by his mothers genetics.

> My father was no doubt an Aspie, he was a poor Italian boy in NYC but somehow attained a full ride to NYU when he was 16. My mother, a poor Polish girl who ran away from the coal country to NYC where she met my father. She has the bipolar phenotype running through her side of family and she was in and out of hospitals and attempted suicide a few times as well.

Oh yes. I got into family history as a lockdown hobby, and it runs well back on my side of the family. And suspect my wife has some ND traits as well, but her environment led her to develop some exceptional coping skills.

The key difference between my son and I that I note is that I escape into books and learning (as did my father before me), whereas my son escapes into physical activity, much like his mother's side did... surfing, boxing, extreme mountain biking... it's the adrenaline that's his coping 'drug'. (Notably I did get into extreme amounts of exercise at one point to cope, but mine was much less adrenaline... it was long distance and multi-day activity.)

> When I took them for the first time I finally understood how other people were able to exist in the world.

That moment of clarity is incomparable... the only comparison I can make to it from before the stimulants was when I was able to induce "runner's high" in myself.

> Regarding my nephew, I was frustrated with my brother, he did not listen to me. I was given Ritalin when I first saw a psychiatrist in 1996 and it threw me into an insane manic episode (I am still apologizing to my ex-girlfriend). That is how that "diagnosed" my bipolar disorder. So being he was realted, and showing some of the same behavior of my other brother who was also bipolar, I felt it was a wrong diagnosis.

I got a bipolar diagnosis a decade ago. Whether technically a misdiagnosis or not I do not know, but I consider the bipolar symptoms to be resulting from the ADHD... I was forever "failing to live up to my potential" and then when I did achieve miracles seemingly out of nowhere I became manic with "I can do anything" euphoria... only for the cycle to repeat. I think partly I didn't have enough life experience to recognise the cycle, because I did fine up until the end of my undergrad due to the formal external structures that kept me on the right path.

By the time I actually got the formal ADHD diagnosis and the prescription, I had already reached a high degree of self-awareness, and knew exactly what it was I wanted to be able to focus on.

But that when contrasted with my son's experience (and the others in this thread) are crystallising the view I'm trying to express... someone may very well have ADHD and lack executive function, but if they are in a pit of anxiety, depression and despair, then they need to work out what they want out of life and what to focus on first before going anywhere near stimulants. Because if you're focusing on wanting to be dead... well, I'm sure you can see the implication I'm getting at.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the parent comment's point to be not (just) that you could be at risk of slipping back into suicidal thoughts and acting on them, but that this might have genetic causes and you could end up passing these tendencies to your children. At least, I know I've thought/worried about this quite a lot.

I get that concern. Our son is only 8, but he already has a psychiatrist, and a lot of his symptoms are similar to mine (ADHD with significant autistic traits.) Our daughter is 4, she hasn’t been diagnosed with anything yet, but I can see many of the same traits in her, so I would not be surprised if in a few more years she acquires some of those labels too. So definitely I have given them some of the negative aspect…

This is the single most hacker news comment I have ever read

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#415
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is a human right. Interfering with someone's basic right to self-determination is absolutely despicable, no matter how ill the person is.

In light of this idiotic take ("interfering is absolutely despicable no matter how I'll") I feel like I should share my own experiences with frequent suicidal impulses, and how thankful I am that someone was there and willing to help me, on many occasions. I'm bipolar, and when I was untreated I would frequently (as on every other day) spend hours locked in a doom-spiral of self hatred, incapable of breaking myself o…

Hi friend. Fellow bipolar here. I don't want to really type up my stories, but I can relate. Glad to see you're doing better now, me too.

:)

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#416
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feeling obliged to leave my story here: Three years ago I made a plan to take my own life. Instead of pushing through I contacted a local suicide hotline, it was completely anonymous. I just talked for a bit, but that little moment helped me to find the courage to talk to a family member and that led me to go into therapy which I completed a few months ago. Initially I was very scared telling my therapist about being…

Unfortunately, judging by the prevalence of the opposing situation happening in articles (in reputable newspapers too) online, you have essentially been lucky (or never got into a conflict with your therapist). The odds of someone dying through suicide after a suicide attempt is very small (only 2%), but those odds greatly increase if inpatient treatment is provided, instead of reducing. There is a reason for that, a…

Is their evidence that psychiatric inpatient treatment is causing high suicide rates among those who leave?

Wouldn't "the system is mostly good at only putting extremely high-risk people into those facilities" cause the same correlation if it were the case?

Would it be surprising if "people leaving any general hospital" were more likely to die of whatever they had been there for than "people who didn't need to go to hospital"?

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#417
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said: > It is why you are always seeing articles insisting, idiotically, that RCTs prove depression medications are no better than placebo. I responded to your claim with a little more colour on that particular trial in order to perhaps start a discussion around what we mean as depression. Clearly, I didn't succeed at my aim, my apologies ;) Edit: it's particularly the framing of the trials as "idiotic" that spur…

I am mystified that we are having this conversation. To me the central statement in my original posting was: > For validity, RCTs depend utterly on reliable sortative diagnoses So, are you saying you believe an RCT can demonstrate a fact when whichever medication is being tested addresses the actual condition of only a tiny fraction of the participants, and even exacerbates some of the others' various conditions? Suc…

> For validity, RCTs depend utterly on reliable sortative diagnoses

Huh, that's a really good point (which I somehow missed in your original post).

That being said, it's incorrect that it's essential for RCT's to function, they'll still work, but with an attenuation based on the actual treatable population.

> Or, are you saying you know how to design the protocol for an RCT when you have no idea which, if any, of the participants actually suffer the condition your medication is supposed to treat?

Well I don't design said protocols, but I suspect the vaccine manufacturers may be able to point you in the right direction.

I think that your point about reliability of diagnosis is interesting, gonna need to think about it a bunch more, but in general, no diagnosis is without error (as most diagnoses are implemented as checklists, and there's some room for arbitrariness).

Just to note, if your point is correct then it's basically all mental-health, expectancy, placebo, psychotherapy RCT's are essentially worthless, which I suspect is not the right approach to take.

Does it matter if we can diagnose people effectively? Of course.

Does it make it impossible to run an RCT in the absence of effective diagnosis? Not impossible, but it definitely adds an interesting layer of complexity, as well as massively increasing the sample size required.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#418

A friend's acquintance has been mentally ill for the last 10 years. They lost their spouse, their job, their car ... everything! They've been gradually increasingly incoherent in their speech over time. They've been resisting treatments. We are not doctors and won't armchair diagnose them, but we figured out something was wrong. We called a hotline for mental health services trying to see how non-family could help. T…

While calling mental health facilities to get advice on a similarly mentally ill individual (homeless for probably decades, delusional speech, probably paranoid schizophrenic, afraid of authorities and equally resistant to treatment...no drugs or alcohol though, so that was nice) two of the people I spoke to said the only way they could reasonably see the person getting help was if I called 911 or the police and told them I was worried they were a threat to themselves. That was the only way to get them forcibly treated. One of them said this based on her own experience in trying to get help for a family member. So I did.

Depending on your city/state, they may send out a mental health specialist. Mine didn't have any available so the police called me and gathered the required information. It was the middle of winter and this individual steadfastly refused to go to a homeless shelter and had a respiratory illness, so it was easy to make the case he was endangering his life. The officer was friendly and explained that if they did find the person to indeed be a threat to themselves, they would be taken to a mental health facility if beds were available. In this person's case, turned out he had a warrant out for his arrest. Part of me felt bad that he went to jail, but the other part was relieved that he was out of the cold. Unfortunately, he fell through the cracks and doesn't seem to have been given mental health treatment during his time there.

Fast forward a few months and I got a call from him. He had made his way to some city in Arizona. He went to a hospital there for some unrelated illness; they quickly realized he was mentally ill and after an evaluation committed him against his will. I hope he gets better.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#419
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that you'll be stuck in the mental hospital for at least a week (those are 72 business hours). I couldn't afford bail, though, so I was stuck in jail for 3 months[0]. There were plenty of other inmates there in similar situations. YMMV. [0] That's how long it took for me to get a court date at which point I was released with time served (2 weeks). Getting out of the mental hospital never even required a law…

Why in hell are there things called "bail" and "time served" that apply to mental treatment? Do they think it's some kind of crime that has to be punished?

c22 is "speaking as someone who has been in jail and also involuntarily committed on multiple occasions". The bail and time served are regarding the jail time, not the mental treatment.

Re: Daddy isn’t coming back

#420
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, judging by the prevalence of the opposing situation happening in articles (in reputable newspapers too) online, you have essentially been lucky (or never got into a conflict with your therapist). The odds of someone dying through suicide after a suicide attempt is very small (only 2%), but those odds greatly increase if inpatient treatment is provided, instead of reducing. There is a reason for that, a…

Is their evidence that psychiatric inpatient treatment is causing high suicide rates among those who leave? Wouldn't "the system is mostly good at only putting extremely high-risk people into those facilities" cause the same correlation if it were the case? Would it be surprising if "people leaving any general hospital" were more likely to die of whatever they had been there for than "people who didn't need to go to…

Yes, in the sense that due to the funding situation of such facilities a bunch of people get refused entry (or because of "complex" problems. E.g. suicidal + addicted? No help for you). So you can study the group that gets helped and the group that doesn't and compare them.

Of course the criticism is that they only take the worst problems (even though refusing "complex" cases obviously contradicts that more than a little bit in my opinion). Likewise other studies that assess the ability of professionals to predict who will commit suicide keep coming with very disappointing results, so frankly, I find it hard to believe they could select the serious cases even if they fully intend to do so.

But the group that gets help has a bigger suicide rate compared to the group that doesn't. Quite a bit bigger. So it depends what you believe.

1) do you believe the criticism that they are able to select serious cases (but are unable to prove that in studies specifically checking that) ? Then it is unknown how effective their treatments are, and until they quantise "seriousness" it is impossible to check how effective they are.

2) do you believe the selection process is mostly random and the criticism is invalid? Then the treatments are counterproductive and they cause suicide. That does not (necessarily) mean they mistreat patients. For example, often the inability to leave gets blamed for job, family, and generally the future prospects to evaporate, which in turn causes suicide, which seems to me to find support in the observation that it's most often just after treatment ends that the actual successful suicide happens. The treatment causes suicide, but not directly.

We should make the exceptions that there are plenty of studies about specific institutions where abuse of patients does happen and it is definitely the institution itself that causes suicide.

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