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Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

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Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#411

Post by jayd16 »

Bukhmanizer wrote: post #202
q_andrew wrote: post #14

Unfortunately this probably won't be changing any time soon. Similar to the movie industry in CA, execs see game developers as totally replaceable, because they kind of are. There are so many people who are extremely passionate about making games, that they will jump after any opportunity, even when they know it isn't paying what it should. The only thing that might bring about some kind of reform is a union or a cha…

One thing that I haven’t really seen mentioned is that the barrier for entry is high in a lot of video game development. Meaning, I can’t really take 3 of my friends and make the next GTA in my garage. Those type of games need developers, but also artists, writers, actors, etc. They’re expensive, risky operations of which development is only a part of. This is probably why it makes the most sense to treat developers…

I would say this is probably not too close to reality. Artists, writers, actors, qa can drop into a new game a lot easier than spinning up software developers. From my experience they're treated less like a commodity than the other disciplines.

That said, not all games are services yet so once the game ships anyone can make it to the chopping block.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#412

Post by onion2k »

comp_throw7 wrote: post #403
wolfretcrap wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is FANGS pay more because it's a casino like setup. Yes, their employees are making lot of money but where her money ends up going? A large part of that ends up paying rent in a region where there are many others making similar wages like you, and trying to outcompete you out of the best property you can choose to live. Mostly people at headquarters or major offices get paid large salaries. Executives make…

I mean, FAANG compensation lets you trivially retire (or achieve financial independence) by ~40 (if you're single), and that's assuming you're budgeting for 200k/year with an extremely conservative withdrawal rate (3%). If you're willing to resettle somewhere cheaper and live a somewhat less extravagant lifestyle, you could do it by your early 30s no problem. And, again, this is if you're single, i.e. no second incom…

I imagine this is true in theory. The math checks out. But every FAANG company has been around for at least 15 years now and we don't hear many stories of their early hires retiring. Where does it break down in practise? Is it just too hard to give up the high paying role? Is it that retirees don't talk about it? Or is it that the theory is actually wrong for some reason, and working for $200k for 20 years doesn't actually leave you with fuck you money after all?

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#413

Post by JabavuAdams »

paulpauper wrote: post #100

being a game dev. seems like the worst tech job: few perks, minimal promotion opportunity, no ipo riches, no buyout riches, no lucrative stock options, high failure rate, low pay relative to revenues and exec pay, long hours, no credit, low salary cap, etc.

It's a lot of fun, and conditions across the industry vary a lot. I burnt out in the games industry (twice), but it was the most fun I've had at work. Intense.

All-expense-paid trips to GDC / San-Francisco from Toronto, Canada were nice. Having people recognize my T-shirt and come up to me to tell me they loved our game ... superficial, but enjoyable. In your '20s you're basically doing what you'd be doing anyway (as a gamer), but getting paid.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#414

Post by comp_throw7 »

_qwfv wrote: post #385
tptacek wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we talk about FAANG companies in this context, we do so with the subtext that there are so few companies that pay this way that they'd fit into a short acronym. The idea that the top of the market rate is the moral floor for compensation is hard to take seriously. Besides, people trade compensation for all sorts of things: working at a nonprofit, working in their rural hometown. Why shouldn't problem domain be o…

FAANG companies also underpay their workers. It can simultaneously be the case that they pay their workers best in class wages AND those wages are less than the workers deserve. Apple has immense cash reserves built from the labor of their employees. That is essentially the difference between what value those employees generated for Apple and what they were paid. More of it should go out to the employees, and we shou…

What does it mean that they underpay their workers, except that they pay them a smaller percentage of the economic value produced by their labor than you think they should? Is that just a deontological claim? Because I imagine "my moral system says software engineers should be paid more, no, don't worry how much more, I'll tell you when to stop" is not very convincing as an argument.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#415

Post by JabavuAdams »

stevezsa8 wrote: post #217
blacktriangle wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about the environment. The pay was shit, but having the devs on another project letting you play their in-progress work and give real feedback at lunch or playing board games with the design team whose job is to literally go out to Walmart, buy board games, and come back and analyze them, then go home and play WoW in your company guild, its just not an experience you can get anywhere else. It may be an unpop…

I've worked in many software companies. We had lunch time/after hours boardgames at every single one. OK, I was the one organising it, but still. Plus we got paid well. Win/win :]

Yeah, but the work is pretty boring to the kinds of personalities who like to work on games, even if it's often more important.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#416

Post by sanxiyn »

onion2k wrote: post #412
comp_throw7 wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, FAANG compensation lets you trivially retire (or achieve financial independence) by ~40 (if you're single), and that's assuming you're budgeting for 200k/year with an extremely conservative withdrawal rate (3%). If you're willing to resettle somewhere cheaper and live a somewhat less extravagant lifestyle, you could do it by your early 30s no problem. And, again, this is if you're single, i.e. no second incom…

I imagine this is true in theory . The math checks out. But every FAANG company has been around for at least 15 years now and we don't hear many stories of their early hires retiring. Where does it break down in practise? Is it just too hard to give up the high paying role? Is it that retirees don't talk about it? Or is it that the theory is actually wrong for some reason, and working for $200k for 20 years doesn't a…

My impression is that there is no breakdown, people who want to retire do retire, but people who want to retire is minority.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#417

Post by paxys »

wildfire wrote: post #405
paxys wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are adjusting too hard in the other direction. "Most" people at FAANG companies are absolutely not miserable. The typical engineer at Google/Facebook works 40 hours a week, gets a good salary and is content with their life.

> The typical engineer at Google/Facebook works 40 hours a > week, gets a good salary and is content with their life. Two of three things you've said here are true. 40 hours a week would guarantee you will not be effective.

I'm not sure if you're trying to say that is too much or too little. In my experience at several such companies, no one is putting in more than 2-4 productive work hours a day.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#418

Post by rewgs »

asdff wrote: post #401
bedhead wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fairly normal for certain "glamour" industries. Back in the day when it was relevant, MTV was infamous for paying people almost nothing, for no other reason than they could because MTV had a coolness factor associated with it that people sought. Same is generally true for a lot of the entertainment industry.

The coolness glamour factor in the entertainment industry goes away when you've been a PA for 10 years. That being said, there are a lot of industries and fields where you spend like your entire 20s just treading water and suffering, and only after that when you emerge, bloodied and standing on the pile of your burned out former coworkers, do you get a crack at the lifestyle you envisioned that profession being like…

Film composer here. Your description is spot-on.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#419

Post by saagarjha »

comp_throw7 wrote: post #410
missedthecue wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's refreshing to see someone pushing back on this narrative a little. FAANG employ a cumulative total of about 100,000 software engineers globally (can't find US-specific numbers). There are 4.4 million software engineers in the USA. I'm sure the graduate -> $200k move happens, but it's only an extremely small number in terms of the occupation as a whole. People on this forum seem to casually mention it as if it's…

Google, Amazon, and Apple together almost certainly hit 100k by themselves. Facebook is a bit smaller than those 3 in terms of engineering headcount but not by much. Netflix is tiny, relatively speaking, I'll give you that. But, I mean, new grads at MSFT can get pretty close to 200k, even though the comp scales up poorly with career progression compared to FAANG. There are a bunch of other companies where you can hit…

> Google, Amazon, and Apple together almost certainly hit 100k by themselves.

No way. Amazon might be coming close (I don't have a very good idea of their size, but my guess is they have like ~75k software engineers); Google probably has about 50k, Apple has like 10k.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#420

Post by ulber »

onion2k wrote: post #412
comp_throw7 wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, FAANG compensation lets you trivially retire (or achieve financial independence) by ~40 (if you're single), and that's assuming you're budgeting for 200k/year with an extremely conservative withdrawal rate (3%). If you're willing to resettle somewhere cheaper and live a somewhat less extravagant lifestyle, you could do it by your early 30s no problem. And, again, this is if you're single, i.e. no second incom…

I imagine this is true in theory . The math checks out. But every FAANG company has been around for at least 15 years now and we don't hear many stories of their early hires retiring. Where does it break down in practise? Is it just too hard to give up the high paying role? Is it that retirees don't talk about it? Or is it that the theory is actually wrong for some reason, and working for $200k for 20 years doesn't a…

I'd wager hedonistic adaptation is the big culprit. You don't end up saving that much unless you actually plan for achieving financial independence.
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