Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#411

Post by heavyset_go » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #113

mywittyname wrote: post #20

I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. There are a lot of jobs where your net pay is below zero, long term, when you factor in the external costs associated with working, such as needing transportation. These jobs have been propped up by debt. It looks like the pandemic has put and end to this. Transportation costs have skyrocketed to such a degree that it's basically impossible for a poor person…

>I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 * 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.

There are places where the commutes from the suburbs to the city where the jobs are costs $20-50 a day, if not more.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#412

Post by havernator » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

j1elo wrote: post #279

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

> Vehicle insurance on an old vehicle: $300/mo Wow. In Spain you would pay between €150 to 200 per year of insurance for the typical old cheap car. 400/year for a nice, semi luxury one. I knew some things were expensive in the States, but this particular one surprised me a lot.

Liability insurance in the US may end up paying out for medical bills.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#413

Post by 8note » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #399

Pfhreak wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Point stands: I was literally a teenager making change on bagel purchases. (Yes, actual bagel shoppe.) I was absolutely making poverty wages. If I did not have free meals from work as a perk I would have starved.

And I worked minimum wage and it allowed my poor household to make ends meet. And another minimum wage job helped me stay solvent enough to survive university.

In what location though? Living costs are notably different by location

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#414

Post by syshum » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

andrei_says_ wrote: post #346

rbg246 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

Exactly. Maintaining laws which force working employees into poverty in order to support inadequate business models is not the solution. Employees outnumber business owners - more people having spending power is vital for the economy.

>>which force working employees into poverty

I think you have a widely unorthodox defination of "force" as no one is forced to take any job at any wage.

Force in the equation would come from the government using the threat of government violence to force a wage on a business owner.

A person that voluntary accepts a job for X wage is not "forced" to do so.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#415

Post by pnutjam » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:54 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #392

cjohnson318 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A teenager making change on bagel purchases isn't working for "poverty wages". Aren't they though? You don't get a discount on rent because you're not 20 yet, and being under 20 doesn't mean you have rich parents that can subsidize your lifestyle.

I'm not arguing for low wages. But it's dishonest to conflate household income and individual salary. More specifically, having a roommate or two or living with some family unit is fairly normal at that age. So other income needs to be accounted for to make that semantic argument stick. Of course not everyone can have employed housemates. But even in those cases, it's not clear to me that banning 16 year olds from wo…

I'm sorry, but I think you absolutely have to give reasons to create a subclass. People do not need to explain why they should be treated the same.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#416

Post by heavyset_go » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

j1elo wrote: post #279

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

> Vehicle insurance on an old vehicle: $300/mo Wow. In Spain you would pay between €150 to 200 per year of insurance for the typical old cheap car. 400/year for a nice, semi luxury one. I knew some things were expensive in the States, but this particular one surprised me a lot.

You can get cheaper coverage, but it's barely insurance at that point. They'll sell you the bare minimum that's legally allowed to be sold as insurance even if it doesn't cover liability, medical costs, etc.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#417

Post by syshum » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

andrei_says_ wrote: post #351

judge2020 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'suffering' for a business is just code for being on a path towards the workers suffering the consequences of no profit. That might mean not paying shareholders dividends and the company's share price losing value, but not all companies are public or pay dividends. If the money runs out, suddenly the business can't pay rent or pay the workers and thus goes bankrupt. No, the business's feelings aren't being hurt and i…

The thing is, “the business” tends to always treat the employees as if money is running out. To the limit permitted by law. This limit needs be adjusted, that’s all.

hmm the vast majority of people in the US work jobs that offer FAR more in wages and benefits that the smallest amount permitted by law, so clearly this statement is objectively false

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#418

Post by rbg246 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #414

andrei_says_ wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Maintaining laws which force working employees into poverty in order to support inadequate business models is not the solution. Employees outnumber business owners - more people having spending power is vital for the economy.

>>which force working employees into poverty I think you have a widely unorthodox defination of "force" as no one is forced to take any job at any wage. Force in the equation would come from the government using the threat of government violence to force a wage on a business owner. A person that voluntary accepts a job for X wage is not "forced" to do so.

You don't think needing to survive forces or keeping your human dignity forces you to find a job?

That's the way I see it.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#419

Post by chasd00 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #253

This seems pretty simple to me since the special unemployment insurance is up to $600/week[0] through at least July 31 it’s going to be hard to convince someone to work for less than that. So if it’s a choice between $15/hour, steady to not work and $18/hour variable to bus tables or whatnot I’m not surprised that people choose the $15. I expect this will be different once unemployment goes back to pre-covid and peop…

I don’t see how this isn’t more obvious. 18 months ago the US was pretty much at full employment the only thing different then and now is the pandemic and the bailouts.

I feel like this article and the others like it are just political opportunism.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#420

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:57 PM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #410

richardjennings wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and now the exploited have been drained dry". I do not think this is true in the absolute currently. I do think that the modern economies are imparting pressures that will make this more true over time. The question every one asks is "What is the point?". The answer is increasingly, there is no point. What about the answers previous generation might have had; send money home, improve life chances with an education,…

> a room the size of a double bed No one's building those, so maybe a tent in or near an abandoned mall.

[deleted]