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I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

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Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#411

Post by varjag »

blub wrote: post #407
varjag wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since people still fail it, even with all might of Google at their command, even with bubblesort allowed , it's anything but pointless. And if you are unable to sort an array it's a strong signal that command in all other areas of CS is lacking. Does C++ has a standard library for RSTP? Do you think a person who can't sort an array after 5 years of school would be able to fix a bug in a switch' spanning tree implemen…

You're looking at this the wrong way IMO. One should not give exercises and try to eliminate candidates, instead they should prepare a set of exercises so that at the end, if the candidate solves them correctly they can confidently say "this candidate knows X, Y and Z", so they should do a good job in our project. In your case, at the end you've only figured out that your candidate knows how to sort an array, which e…

Problem is however that a good crop of candidates doesn't know how to sort an array, am not sure why am finding myself explaining it for the 2nd time. So all I can say is they are below high school student in your neck of the woods, even if they have Masters in relevant discipline. And if you can't sort an array with all help of Wikipedia and Stackoverflow, you would not be able to walk a graph, let alone do anything useful with it.

So I'm not quite sure what is your beef with it exactly. Do you think I should have used a more complicated task? Like, Dijkstras' on a graph? Are you sure that you wouldn't find that objectionable too, given that sorting an array is apparently asking too much?

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#412

Post by varjag »

scarface74 wrote: post #409
varjag wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am saying exactly that. This is a userspace implementation not making use of switch hardware fabric. You can probably hack hardware forwarding into it (haven't looked into this, our implementation predates it by 2 years). Or you can read an RSTP spec and implement it. None of it is secret, like none of CS in general is. Both approaches however would be beyond the skills of a programmer who can't sort an array.…

I’m saying that you don’t need to memorize an algorithm. For one job I had to maintain a proprietary compiler/VM/IDE that never saw the light of day outside of the company. I needed to solve an arbitrarily complex algebraic expression in a string. I had no idea how to do it. I found both algorithms I needed with a quick google search and implemented them in C - one was converting the expression to RPN and the other w…

No? I asked to sort a bloody array, that's it.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#413

Post by scarface74 »

blub wrote: post #407
varjag wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since people still fail it, even with all might of Google at their command, even with bubblesort allowed , it's anything but pointless. And if you are unable to sort an array it's a strong signal that command in all other areas of CS is lacking. Does C++ has a standard library for RSTP? Do you think a person who can't sort an array after 5 years of school would be able to fix a bug in a switch' spanning tree implemen…

You're looking at this the wrong way IMO. One should not give exercises and try to eliminate candidates, instead they should prepare a set of exercises so that at the end, if the candidate solves them correctly they can confidently say "this candidate knows X, Y and Z", so they should do a good job in our project. In your case, at the end you've only figured out that your candidate knows how to sort an array, which e…

Seeing that the Bubble Sort was something I did in 6th grade in the 80s as part of an AppleSoft BASIC programming class - congratulations, the interviewer has now proven he can hire a programmer with the skillset of a middle schooler....

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#414

Post by varjag »

scarface74 wrote: post #413
blub wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at this the wrong way IMO. One should not give exercises and try to eliminate candidates, instead they should prepare a set of exercises so that at the end, if the candidate solves them correctly they can confidently say "this candidate knows X, Y and Z", so they should do a good job in our project. In your case, at the end you've only figured out that your candidate knows how to sort an array, which e…

Seeing that the Bubble Sort was something I did in 6th grade in the 80s as part of an AppleSoft BASIC programming class - congratulations, the interviewer has now proven he can hire a programmer with the skillset of a middle schooler....

I would totally hire a middle schooler who can program over a PhD who can't. That said the guy we hired did an insertion sort.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#415

Post by ryandrake »

chimpburger wrote: post #364
ryandrake wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you need a doctor or lawyer or pilot, because they are certified, you at least know that they all have at least a bare minimum amount of competence. You may not know if they are elite ninja skilled, but you know they know the basics. Literally anyone can say they know how to program, and there is nothing on the resume that can confirm or deny this. I’ve interviewed Senior Software Engineers with years of experie…

What about github projects? Can't you ask for examples of code they have written?

Sure, if they actually have any. You’d need a way to verify the code was actually written by them. You’d also need to be careful you’re not overly biasing towards “people who [have time to / are allowed to] publish on GitHub”. Plenty of good developers don’t/can’t use GitHub.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#416

Post by scarface74 »

varjag wrote: post #411
blub wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at this the wrong way IMO. One should not give exercises and try to eliminate candidates, instead they should prepare a set of exercises so that at the end, if the candidate solves them correctly they can confidently say "this candidate knows X, Y and Z", so they should do a good job in our project. In your case, at the end you've only figured out that your candidate knows how to sort an array, which e…

Problem is however that a good crop of candidates doesn't know how to sort an array, am not sure why am finding myself explaining it for the 2nd time. So all I can say is they are below high school student in your neck of the woods, even if they have Masters in relevant discipline. And if you can't sort an array with all help of Wikipedia and Stackoverflow, you would not be able to walk a graph, let alone do anything…

Let’s say someone didn’t know any sort algorithms since he has been using one provided by the language. Would you have been willing to explain on a high level how the algorithm works? I wouldn’t be opposed to any algorithmic type question if you explain the requirements on a high level and let them do it within an IDE.

But, you are hiring for a software developer, who should be able to translate business problems that you face everyday into a working system. Don’t you have any real world scenarios that you could use to test on?

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#417

Post by confusedcoder »

pault wrote: post #205
caymanjim wrote: post #85

Interviewing people is hard. Most people suck at it. I've interviewed over 100 people in my life, and I've been interviewed about ten times. I know I still suck at it. The code test is one of the more annoying facets of interviews. On the hiring side, it's an efficient way to screen and vet candidates for basic skills. It's relatively low cost to the employer to have a recruiter issue the test. If you come up with yo…

> My resume speaks for itself. At the time of this writing, I am working with someone who has 10+ years of experience, including former positions as a lead developer. I was involved in the interview process and made the recommendation to hire, as they were able to answer a lot of domain-specific questions very well and had a good knowledge of the ecosystem. Fast-forward three months, and I am spending hours per day s…

Forgive me because I have used a similar idom when dealing with io.

I do something like:

  for i=0; i
Am I doing something stupid here?

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#418

Post by blub »

varjag wrote: post #411
blub wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at this the wrong way IMO. One should not give exercises and try to eliminate candidates, instead they should prepare a set of exercises so that at the end, if the candidate solves them correctly they can confidently say "this candidate knows X, Y and Z", so they should do a good job in our project. In your case, at the end you've only figured out that your candidate knows how to sort an array, which e…

Problem is however that a good crop of candidates doesn't know how to sort an array, am not sure why am finding myself explaining it for the 2nd time. So all I can say is they are below high school student in your neck of the woods, even if they have Masters in relevant discipline. And if you can't sort an array with all help of Wikipedia and Stackoverflow, you would not be able to walk a graph, let alone do anything…

I was saying all along that your exercise:

a) is too easy

b) doesn't have enough meat to differentiate between junior / regular / senior

c) covers very little if anything at all from what a SWE does on their day to day. OTOH I guess/hope you had more things, not just this.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#419

Post by scottLobster »

diminoten wrote: post #185
scottLobster wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't ask it snarkily. I've been hired for jobs before and then asked to work on stuff that, while related, was nowhere in the job description. Got hired to do Java/C++ development, was pushed into being part-time sysadmin for our primary test environment because my team had spare capacity and our dev-ops team didn't. There were times I went 6 months without touching a line of Java or C++. Another guy I worked w…

There's literally no way to not ask that snarkily. Don't do it. Also, it reeks of "justice driven opinion having" which is scary beyond reason for an employer, e.g. "They didn't ask for this feature the right way so I'm not going to deliver it/deliver it in a way that makes them unhappy."

I know it's the internet, but you seem to projecting a certain tone onto my statements that wouldn't be there. I don't know where you got "justice driven opinion having" from, it's mission-driven opinion having. They need to know I can code my way out of a shoe-box, and in return I need to know they can lead a team of engineers through a Chuck-E-Cheese ball pit.

Someone who gets defensive about an honest, neutral-tone question about their interview process is likely going to be defensive about more important decisions, which means they take feedback poorly and are likely a poor leader. This is assuming I'm talking to a hiring manager and not an HR rep.

I don't apply to missions I'm not willing to work overtime for. If I'm going to make sacrifices for whatever my employment does, I require that my leadership shares my commitment and is fundamentally competent such that they don't needlessly waste my sacrifices. In any interview I'll be probing for that as respectfully as I can, just as they'll be probing me for technical aptitude and whatever character profile they're looking for.

Re: I got asked LeetCode questions for a dev-ops systems engineering job today

#420

Post by pjscott »

tene wrote: post #377
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just false: there are a bunch of sharp edges in JavaScript, but once you know them, the language itself is one of the more pleasant languages to use: this can be a bit of a problem, since the languages itself doesn’t force a particular structure on your code like Java or Haskell do, but on the other hand, JavaScript is an amazing language for experimenting with new programming paradigms and application archit…

What structure do you believe Haskell forces on your code? My experience with Haskell is that it's the most expressive and flexible environment for exploring different ways of structuring code that I've ever used. I've seen everything from extremely-imperative code carefully managing memory allocations and munging bits, to very abstract high-level libraries that declare abstract computations that can be interpreted o…

Haskell doesn't force anything, but it does make some pretty strong suggestions. Haskell suggests immutable data, pure functions, and algebraic thinking. You can make your data mutable, do everything in the `IO` or `State` monad, etc., because Haskell doesn't force structure on your code -- but the suggestion is still there, whispering in the back of your mind.

(This is what I love about Haskell, BTW, so please don't read this as a criticism.)

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