We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#411

Post by ScottFree » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:33 PM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #150

pascalxus wrote: post #60

But HR isn't the only problem. In my experience having worked for a company that hired heavily for several years, it was the engineers who lacked the talent necessary to conduct proper interviews. Great candidates were being rejected by the truck load. Us engineers, we're great at engineering but many of the junior and mid-level ones don't have much experience interviewing people and usually no training whatsoever. S…

We switched from a random set of questions to a take home coding assignment (that we compensate for) and a discussion of said coding assignment. It's pretty clear what kind of work someone will do when you can look at work they've done.

What would you do if a candidate turned down your home coding assignment, but gave you one of the coding assignments he completed for a different job interview?

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#412

Post by matwood » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #264

fma wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've posted this elsewhere (forgot here or reddit). I'm gainfully employed. A former colleague who is now in a hiring position at a new company reached out to me. Said they have several openings and are having a hard time hiring good people. It would be a much longer commute, working/rewriting some older tech to be cloud ready (I did that at my current and previous employer). We started talking about salary. I told h…

> I told him what I made. Never make that mistake. Never ever disclose your salary information to someone that you potentially could work for. I think a situation where we were required by law to disclose, or a company where such a thing was common (GitLab) would be exceptions. But otherwise, I've found it to be a huge mistake to disclose your exact salary or numbers to anyone.

> Never make that mistake. Never ever disclose your salary information to someone that you potentially could work for.

In general I agree, except he did say the person was his friend. My close friends and I all know what each other makes. It helps a lot when negotiating for a new job, because I now have additional data to know that what I'm asking for is not crazy.

One of these friends I have worked for in the past and could work for again, but he readily admits he can't afford me right now.

EDIT, I read colleague as most likely a friend now. Perhaps not, but my above point still stands about friends.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#413

Post by daemontus » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #346

b212 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose ma…

US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good. So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.

Don't forget it's 200k a year whereas the EU salary is 5k per month - still way below, but as op said: once you factor in the cost of living, it starts to make more sense :)

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#414

Post by galfarragem » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

b212 wrote: post #381

bufferoverflow wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good. So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.

This is relative. 5000€ is $5623. You can maintain a "normal" life standard around here for about $800 (renting a studio / two room flat in the city centre + all the expenses, no car but I never needed one - the subway takes me to the furthest parts of town in 25 minutes, walking to work is not unusual). So you're saving more or less 5000$ every month. How much do you have to earn in SV to rent a place for your own n…

Bargaining doesn't seem to work at scale (countries with bargaining habits don't do good economically) and it rapidly becomes a big waste of time for everybody.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#415

Post by dv_dt » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #346

b212 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose ma…

US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good. So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.

This is because a sr programmer with experience and likely a family needs to think about saving for healthcare, retirement, education costs for children, housing costs that may also be more inefficient or expensive in the US than other nations

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#416

Post by quickthrower2 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

Mr_Shiba wrote: post #320

>I'm 45 and have gray hair. I'm reaching 40 next year, 20 years of code experience. What's bizarre about the whole thing is that I would be consider to be reaching my productive peak in the next 10 years in any other field. In tech you are treated like a dinosaur, as if not knowing what the latest hipster JS framework of the week makes you obsolete. >Are you people complete morons? Yes.

Also there is no reason why a 50 year old can’t learn Vue, React, Rust, Blockchain, PWA, Docker or anything else that is hot. It’s all logic, all 1s and 0s. Someone with 20 years experience can probably learn it faster.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#417

Post by m463 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:38 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #316

Scarblac wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Because it creates an information asymmetry. They now know what you (are willing to) work for, but you don't know what they're willing to pay, or what everyone else in the company makes. It does not benefit you to disclose the information, even if you think your number is high . They might assume you are lying, or they might already be anchored at an even higher number - you don't know.

I kind of wonder about these things, but I'm not in sales.

I've heard two stories about car dealers that each say different things.

One story was about a car dealer that told its salesmen the actual wholesale price of the cars they were selling. The salesmen would deal from that price upwards and would always sell the cars close to that price. They changed to only telling them the retail price of the car and then sales from that point on were much higher as the selling prices clustered nearer to retail.

But the other story was from a friend who used to work at a car dealer. The top sales guy would move an enormous number of cars. He would sell them for $250 over invoice. My friend said he was amazing, and it was common for other salesmen to spend hours haggling with a customer on one car, and meanwhile the top guy would move 4 or 5 cars.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#418

Post by sixtypoundhound » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:39 PM UTC

riazrizvi wrote: post #231

rubicon33 wrote: post #208

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless…

1000X yes. It’s the result of a PR campaign to increase the H1B Visa allotment. Love H1B employees, they are just delicious! Low wages and zero bargaining power otherwise it’s out of the country with you. It’s also funny because this creates a problem where wages have been driven down to a point where skilled workers can barely afford to support a family in tech zones. So because of these depressed wages in software…

Wonder what would happen if we:

- Set high minimum wage for H1B ($150,000+ annual salary, set to increase in response to inflation in technology salaries)

- Incorporated an automatic green card "path to citizen" into the process, which will be portable between employers (with a decent provision for unemployment or family leaves).

Seems like:

- Dramatic improvement in living conditions for higher end H1B roles (less beholden to employer, more career mobility)

- Immediately eliminates abusive lower-tier H1B roles (you could grandfather existing arrangements for the duration)

- Opens up entry level tech roles to native-born trainees

- Opens up unencumbered path to citizenship for top talent

I'm sure there's a way for politicians to screw this up... but seems like this might be a good first step towards ending the current abuses within this system...

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#419

Post by sixtypoundhound » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:41 PM UTC

gwright wrote: post #229

rubicon33 wrote: post #208

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless…

There is so much to disagree with here, but #1 is the disparaging attitude towards manual labor.

Which is ironic, given what the plumber quoted us this week.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#420

Post by samhh » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:41 PM UTC

digianarchist wrote: post #243

burtonator wrote: post #5

I had a recruiter call me a year ago with what sounded like a really amazing offer. Working for a well funded startup on a problem in which I happen to be a domain expert. They're aren't many expects in my field with my background and skill set and they said the right things to get me to interview (compensation won't be a concern). Anyway... Went in for 4-5 interviews. Took me about 10 hours in total to interview wit…

This happens on Hired.com all the time. Company makes an offer that meets your expectation. Phone interview comes to an end and then HR say "Actually we want you to move on salary before proceeding" and that's if you are lucky. I finished an interview in London, UK and they start umming and ahing over a measly five grand. It happened in Toronto too last year.

I was put in touch with a business by a recruiter. I stated my salary expectations, received the typical "that's a little high..." from the recruiter; as per usual, the offers I received justified my stance.

They offered me 15% below what I wanted alongside a very uninspiring business in advertising. I was honest and said I was interviewing elsewhere and wasn't about to accept that offer quickly, though it wasn't off the table. They waited one week and pulled the offer. I accepted a better offer pretty much the next day.

The recruiter got back in touch with me a week or two later and said quite frankly that they regretted their decision as they've struggled to find anyone comparable in my salary range. Because, as it finally dawned on them, my salary expectations weren't even that high - I intentionally put them in the mid-range for my skill-set because I care deeply about work/life balance and I'm picky about tech stack.

Unrelated, but I also had a similar experience last year when buying my first home. First place we put an offer in with was poorly advised by their agent, and they came back begging a few months later by which point it was too late. It's only two anecdotal data points but it does seem to be that people are willing to lose a lot in order to gain a pittance.