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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#411

Post by daveFNbuck »

bootlooped wrote: post #105
about_help wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an extreme example to illustrate the point, not a direct comparison of FB to atomic bombs. However, one might argue that FB is actually worse. It is hard to quantify widespread societal effects and determine if they would have occurred through other channels. The massive privacy violations across the world through FB is another item that is hard to quantify yet 100% morally wrong.

I don't think it would be a very persuasive argument. Atomic bombs have some easily quantifiable negatives, for example $5+ trillion spent on nuclear arms in the US alone, and ~200,000 mostly civilians killed. https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/costs-us-nuclear-weapo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a...

The atomic bombs were dropped as a result of a dangerous political movement gaining power in Germany. That's the sort of thing people are upset about Facebook enabling now.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#412

Post by antod »

eesmith wrote: post #402
antod wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And we really needed to let the government sell the lie that there was a 'missile gap' to the US population? Or was that lie in order to hide that there were U-2 overflights? Who were we hiding the knowledge of U-2s from? The Soviets, who could see them on radar and were developing ways to shoot them down? Or the US public? From memory the "missile gap" wasn't a government lie to hide anything but an election campa…

Eisenhower could have made the information public. A lie of omission is still a lie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap > According to Robert McNamara, Kennedy was leaked the inflated US Air Force estimates by Senator Stuart Symington, the former Secretary of the Air Force. Unaware that the report was misleading, Kennedy used the numbers in the document and based some of his 1960 election campaign platform on…

I see what you meant about hiding the U2 now, ie by not refuting the missile gap 'lie' rather than by creating/spreading it. Makes sense. Cheers

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#413

Post by pandapower2 »

p1necone wrote: post #246
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

>My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec

In my experience they are concocted by a dozen people from across the company sitting in a room all day filling white boards with feel good, businessy words that only vaguely relate to their employer.

Agreement on the mission statement has to be unanimous within this group as well as being signed off on by several execs who will not be present during its drafting. The requirement for consensus ensures that only something incredibly tepid can get over the line.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#414

Post by halfdan »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #269
p1necone wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Ironically I think Facebook is one example that (at least in the early days) had values that actually had teeth. "Move fast and break things" isn't just a feel-good truism like most values that companies come up with are. It's something that at least some people are going to disagree with, and it's something that can actually be instructive when making a decision at that company. I don't personally agree with it, but…

"Move fast and break things" sounds more like humanity's approach to global warming than a wise and sustainable business approach.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#415

Post by pessimizer »

IAmEveryone wrote: post #387
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any…

Categorically denying any role for these statements (or rather what they represent) seems slightly silly. We all have values and goals besides money, and when they inevitably come into conflict, we make decisions. Google sees "organising information" as its mission. My desk would currently make an excellent opportunity to organise some information. Are they going to pay someone to sort all these papers? Probably not.…

> Categorically denying any role for these statements (or rather what they represent) seems slightly silly. We all have values and goals besides money, and when they inevitably come into conflict, we make decisions.

Anthropomorphizing publicly held companies is quite a bit more silly. Just because I have values and goals besides money doesn't mean that companies do; I also go to the restroom and breathe oxygen.

It's often impossible to say conclusively whether money is being left on the table in the cases that you've mentioned, because there's a PR hit taken when certain things are done that could ultimately reduce revenue. In the case of Apple, the fact that the flipside of fairly tyrannical possessiveness over their customers is a vigorous defense of their customers from outside entities makes the lock-in and intentional incompatibility and obfuscation seem almost like a hug. Without that defense, it would just feel like a snare - being known to give anyone access to anything willingly would definitely affect Apple's sales in a big way. Courage in that case would be to exploit that data, figure out a way to sell that idea to the users or to conceal it from the users, and risk a lot of users abandoning the platform.

Also, Google doing what it takes to make it in China might endanger their increasing integration in the US government. The brave thing would be to try to work both at the same time.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#416

Post by e7mac »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #371
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Mission statements are always bullshit. The reason being that I have never seen a case where, when push comes to shove, that a company would forgo needed revenue if it contradicted their mission statement. Instead what happens is that leaders go through mental gymnastics trying to show "No, it still aligns with our mission statement, you just have to twist the meaning of the words in the mission statement beyond any…

This Weird Al song captures this perfectly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#417

Post by Corrado »

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

When I was in college and looking for an intern job I declined to interview with RJ Reynolds and several local alcohol producers on moral grounds. I wouldn't have accepted a job there no matter what they offered me. So, I can understand why people wouldn't want to work for a company and believe that there are people in the world that won't compromise their morals for a paycheck.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#418

Post by thecatspaw »

joesb wrote: post #399
glibgil wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think enjoying your job and being paid well need to be mutually exclusive If there is a job, say museum docent, that the majority of qualified people would love to do then the salary of that job will approach $0. Museum docents are usually volunteers, but the chance for an art history major to practice their craft is valuable to the worker even at $0

> If there is a job, say museum docent, that the majority of qualified people would love to do then the salary of that job will approach $0. Sure. But then you are assuming that what I love is what other people love. If there's only very few people who want to do those job, and I'm one of them. Should the pay be less only because I happen to love the job?

No. In capitalism its a question of supply and demand. Usually the jobs that most people love, are in low demand, and high supply, so they can pay less.

If you love a job that only very few people love, you can still make demands and request a high salary.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#419

Post by scottlocklin »

EpicEng wrote: post #107
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

This is true of anything, just a bunch of talk. It's easy to be opposed to X when X does not offer you anything. As soon as X is good for you, many (most?) people don't stick to their guns.

Yeah, nobody has principles.

https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2018/05/24/i-dont-want-to...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#420

Post by gaius »

bluntfang wrote: post #139
raarts wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's your goal, start your own company.

The best way to learn how to start your own company is to join an early stage where they give you lots of responsibility and ownership. The closer you are to the founders the easier it is to learn from their mistakes.

This isn’t really true. The important experiences at a startup are meeting and learning to work with investors, the board, regulators, early key customers and so on. As an employee you won’t get this exposure (tho’ the founders will dangle it in front of you like a carrot). As an early employee your job is to grind, sacrifice your health and relationships, then get diluted out by the next fundraising round.
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