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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

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Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#411

Post by lyzan »

presscast wrote: post #403
lyzan wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not totally free (access costs) a vast majority of the knowlage I've learned and use for my job has been from free resources online. Realistically, I've probably spent under $500 in 10 years on educational materials (excluding buying my first non-work-sponsored laptop) and am now "Senior" level in my field. Plus almost all that was in more recent years as I'm trying learn more theoretical / academic application…

Time is money, as the saying goes. When you're working a double shift to put food on the table, it's really hard to learn an extra skill set (e.g. programming) and make time to build up a resume on github (or whatever). The cost isn't really located in the act of "buying" education.

I work 80+ hours a week, you don't need to tell me about time. However EVERY friend I have making significantly less than me / slightly struggling works a single job and spends significant free time in front of TV or games or facebook. My friend that worked hard all the time I taught coding to in under 8 months and he broke 6 figures within 3 years. The ones that were lazy I tried and they didn't put effort in to continue and didnt learn enough to switch jobs and are still doing the same thing.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#412

Post by d--b »

lr4444lr wrote: post #371
d--b wrote: post #269

It seems simple enough to raise minimum wages: => tap into corporate profits that are through the roof & reduce the working poor problem. Organizing in unions would work too. Minimum wages exist for a reason: the job market does not satisfy the conditions for making it an "equilibrium" market. As long as unions are weak, corporations can and will strong-arm the labor force into cheaper and cheaper work. The fact that…

Sweden seems to do okay without them.

Sweden has unions though

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#413

Post by angry_octet »

blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

You don't need to 'educate' parents as to the importance of education. It is a typical rich person bias to believe that poor and disadvanted people need to be told that.

Likewise, people know that getting pregnant at 16 is not a great life plan. But the fundamentalist right have been campaigning for decades to control women's reproduction, including to prevent sexual health education, prevent contraception, and to deny access to abortion.

Lack of a social safety net (including health care) means that if you get a few bad breaks you could be living in your car with your kids. Essential medicine (like insulin) which should only cost a few dollars actually costs someone on minimum wage all their disposable income.

Saying that its better than a developing economy misses the point, the US is one of the richest countries in the world, and ordinary people are systematically taken advantage of by their own system of government. It's just tragic.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#414

Post by TangoTrotFox »

citation_please wrote: post #267
TangoTrotFox wrote: post #64

These articles are quite disingenuous as they constantly focus on hourly pay without giving a any context whatsoever to compensation : bonuses, matched retirement/investment plans, insurance, profit-sharing/equity plans, paid time off, paid sick leave days, etc. This really seems just disingenuous to me since this is a major part of compensation as the figures show. And the worst part is that this measurement of comp…

This is probably heavily affected by at least two things: 1. increase in healthcare costs and how health insurance is bound to employment 2. increase in wealth concentration and a shift from cash compensation to asset compensation (Bezos is only absurdly rich if he liquidates his Amazon holding instantly) So, I would say your portrayal of hourly compensation is disingenuous as well. All of these statistics probably n…

I agree averages can be misleading. As the joke goes when Bill Gates walks into a bar suddenly everybody's a billionaire, on average! At the same time medians can also be misleading. We have 50 people earning $10, 1 earning $100, and 50 earning $200. We swap to a system where we have 50 people earning $90, 1 earning $100, and 50 earning $300. There would have been a major shift upward with nearly everybody seeing major increases in earning, yet the median would not have shifted at all.

This [1] is the real median personal income. The data there only starts at 1974 but you once again see a 32% increase in income. Now factor in the change in hours worked. The average American works more than 100 less hours then back then. [2]. These numbers combined along with arguing that most people only saw a real increase in wages of 12% is simply not possible, nor is it possible to simply attribute all growth to the rich.

Now there is this [3]. The numbers from that paper are really what made me start digging into all of this stuff. To give the long and short of it - the poor are becoming middle class, and the middle class are becoming rich. With the net effect being a major decline in the number of poor, a major increase in the number of rich, and a small decline in the number of middle class. Probably not coincidentally, not entirely dissimilar to the hypothetical I proposed where the median can end up being misleading. These 'nobody except the rich are seeing more money' articles seem to be simply untrue, but they are click magnets.

[1] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

[2] - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USAAHWEP

[3] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16952930

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#415

Post by presscast »

lyzan wrote: post #411
presscast wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time is money, as the saying goes. When you're working a double shift to put food on the table, it's really hard to learn an extra skill set (e.g. programming) and make time to build up a resume on github (or whatever). The cost isn't really located in the act of "buying" education.

I work 80+ hours a week, you don't need to tell me about time. However EVERY friend I have making significantly less than me / slightly struggling works a single job and spends significant free time in front of TV or games or facebook. My friend that worked hard all the time I taught coding to in under 8 months and he broke 6 figures within 3 years. The ones that were lazy I tried and they didn't put effort in to con…

To an extent, we can agree that poverty is a function of making bad decisions. Certainly, living frugally and using one's time well are necessary for financial success.

That said, making good decisions isn't sufficient, especially when you're trying to claw your way out of deep poverty.

You need more than just hard word. You need the opportunity to do the right kind of hard work, which many people lack.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#416

Post by lyzan »

baq wrote: post #407
lyzan wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not totally free (access costs) a vast majority of the knowlage I've learned and use for my job has been from free resources online. Realistically, I've probably spent under $500 in 10 years on educational materials (excluding buying my first non-work-sponsored laptop) and am now "Senior" level in my field. Plus almost all that was in more recent years as I'm trying learn more theoretical / academic application…

you 1) had a job 2) had access to the internet now trying learning anything for free online when you don't have money for food because you're jobless and don't have access to the internet because you don't have money for that either.

Yes, for (1) I had a $10/hr job working as a cashier until I saved up enough for a laptop and got an unpaid internship in tech.

For (2) as I said: libraries are free, coffee shops are free. hotel lobbies are free, heck some whole areas have free Wi-Fi. Internet is very easy to find.

I'll be the first to admit I had a good education, caring and supportive family, and my story would be different and harder without them, but I can't imagine a world that I didn't try to learn something new each day.

Again though, people always try and compare the worst. The solution for someone without a living wage job is a society that doesn't allow that to happen and is a different argument IMO. Getting out of abject poverty is very different than getting out of poverty / being poor.

That said, for someone homeless and jobless, time IS their greatest resource, so learning can be a useful resort. Further no one said they had to do it on their own. The main premise here is that learning is better than hard work for increasing your station. I think that's true regardless of feasibility.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#417

Post by gregcrv »

lr4444lr wrote: post #365
noobermin wrote: post #18

It's not like meritocracy is completely unrelated to real life, it matters in a certain regime. However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. Similarly, if you are born to very well off standards, even if you're a dope and spend money from Dad's inheritance on cocaine, sure, you won't be successful but you'll still have a net of some kind. You ca…

The diabetic Vanessa could have chosen not to have her first baby at 16.

Maybe make abortion free and easy to access?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#418

Post by lr4444lr »

cm2012 wrote: post #378
lr4444lr wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The diabetic Vanessa could have chosen not to have her first baby at 16.

You have no idea the kind of mental state, upbringing and understanding of the world Vanessa had at 16. One of the big reasons teen girls get pregnant is a desperate hope to fill the psychological void in their hearts created by neglectful parents.

How about the next kid she had at 19? The 3rd she had at 21?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#419

Post by akvadrako »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #390
hhjinks wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not absolve her of her irresponsibility. 99% of 16-year-olds realize having a kid is a bad idea. She made her bed, and now she sleeps in it. I can empathize with her situation, but I can not empathize with anyone saying she is not herself at least partly responsible.

Why are we making motherhood something that cuts into someone’s career at all? Furthermore why are we making motherhood something that should punish the mother? Is it okay that a mother go without resources because she mothered too young? Is it fair/meritocratic to her child?

To some degree most cultures do give assistance to new mothers, at least if they are poor. It seems you are arguing for more of that; the issue is it creates bad outcomes. The poorer you are, the more practical sense it makes to have a child. Then the next generation is more likely to have grown up in less than ideal circumstances.

The only kind of children society should encourage is those in stable financially-secure families.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#420

Post by akvadrako »

ionised wrote: post #338
blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

I would expect US minimums to be far greater than developing countries.

Well your expectations are wrong. As a poster a little above shows, the USA is closer to developing countries than developed on many metrics.
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