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NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

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Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#411

Post by [deleted] »

nostromo wrote: post #220
pitaj wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College is expensive because so much money is available in the forms of subsidies and loans. If the federal government stopped guaranteeing loans, and cut back on other subsidies, the cost of college would be much much lower.

This seems to be a pattern in America. People call for X to be more affordable > government subsidizes X > X absorbs all subsidies and becomes even more expensive > people call for X to be socialized. Maybe instead we should start to unwind student financing. For example: let students discharge student loans via bankruptcy. That would give financiers pause and would put an upper bound on what many universities could…

[deleted]

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#412

Post by nostrebored »

dragonwriter wrote: post #409
rrcaptain wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between the government funding education and the government funding students. Costs are high because the government funds students (sometimes), not education. And very few people get government scholarships, most get loans which must be repayed: essentially an extra tax on the middle class.

> And very few people get government scholarships, Untrue. Lots of people get Pell Grants, but the value of each is very small.

Grants and scholarships are different, FWIW. Pell grants can be an extreme amount of money depending on your income bracket, but given the prior knowledge that people at each income bracket will make up the difference in amount (for a service like education), it can be seen as increasing school prices by the highest paid amount.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#413

Post by lazerwalker »

h4b4n3r0 wrote: post #410
GeneralMayhem wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very heartily disagree with letting the market decide education priorities, for two reasons. First, education is chock full of positive externalities, which will never be realized correctly. While "the economy" doesn't need underwater basket weaving - or art history, or literature - society still does. Even if people don't work in their field, the world is better for the increase in knowledge. Man does not live on…

>> society still does That's just, like, your opinion, man. Society certainly does not need so many graduates in English Literature: there are only so many open positions at McDonalds, and they as a rule do not require a degree. If there's market demand, society can pay real cash money for it. It used to be that most writers, painters, historians, etc, etc, had to also have an useful day job. _Albert Einstein_ had a…

> That's just, like, your opinion, man. Society certainly does not need so many graduates in English Literature: there are only so many open positions at McDonalds, and they as a rule do not require a degree.

This strikes me as a deeply sad view of the world. As an individual, a well-rounded education is a life-enriching thing, even if it doesn't directly tie into your professional career. As an overall society, having a more highly-educated populace is a net positive for everyone.

> It used to be that most writers, painters, historians, etc, etc, had to also have an useful day job.

And if you look even farther back in time, most artists were supported by a rich patron who believed in the value of art.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#414

Post by bootloop »

perfmode wrote: post #136
sf_rob wrote: post #32

I'll probably be downvoted on a forum like this, but I worry about the most successful universities using their funds to subsidize those who would be fine without it. I was actually made aware of this by a wealthy Stanford alumni which has a fairly broad program for undergraduate tuition assistance. Graduates of mid/low tier universities seem more and more likely to have to compete with better credentialed people wit…

I am the first person in my family to attend university. Stanford gave me a full ride to study CS and it has made a world of difference in my ability to access opportunities. I am an anecdote obviously. However, I want it to be known that at Stanford, people at the bottom of the economic ladder receive aid, but people in the middle still get squeezed. Making tuition free for all would actually be a net positive. Sure…

Yea but historically Stanford was tuition free for everyone. (Like the founders wished it to be.) So that's why they have such an extensive student aid program, properly not the same anywhere else.

Edit: Actually more of a comment for the post before.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#415

Post by namdnay »

avip wrote: post #395
geff82 wrote: post #391

What a surreal discussion about something obvious: University and college should be free for everyone. First, this is a great equalizer in the positive way: it does not depend on how wealthy your parents are, so you get an equal opportunity. Second: the society as a whole benefits from well educated people. Accounts need well trained doctors, doctors need well trained accountants, both need an engineer to craft them…

Always replace "free" with "I'm paying for you". I don't know what's "obvious" about me paying your tuition fees. For once, I may be happy to fund your auto-mechanic studies as I know I'll need you to fix my car. But if you're studying ancient Akkadian I'm less inclined to pay your bills.

Are you really that petty in real life? Or is this just an absolutist argument?

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#416

Post by namdnay »

Karishma1234 wrote: post #397
geff82 wrote: post #391

What a surreal discussion about something obvious: University and college should be free for everyone. First, this is a great equalizer in the positive way: it does not depend on how wealthy your parents are, so you get an equal opportunity. Second: the society as a whole benefits from well educated people. Accounts need well trained doctors, doctors need well trained accountants, both need an engineer to craft them…

"Free" means someone else should be paying for it. Now, as an average income guy I will never earn as much as a Doctor and will vehemently oppose any move to pay for these would be rich people's education. If the degree is worth something, please pay it yourself. >Countries like Germany show All these kids are more than welcome to go to Germany and save $500K in tuition fees.

> as an average income guy I will never earn as much as a Doctor

Maybe if you had had free education you could have been a high income guy, perhaps even a doctor!

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#417

Post by jpdus »

kfrzcode wrote: post #137
monocasa wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK. The same thought process led me to not being able to complete college due to financial reasons. Despite being emancipated, FAFSA still considers you a dependent until you're 24. I was told that only with documentation of leaving an abusive household would a dependency exception grant be applied. So according to FAFSA I was supposed to use all this money that I didn't have to pay for college. By 24 I had dropped…

> Just make college free. Sure, have some funding ideas?

This discussion is ridiculous from an European standpoint.

In Germany all universities (with very few exceptions) are completely free and students have just to pay their cost of living (can apply for subsidies for that too).

There were many studies which showed that ANY fee is a deterrent for students from poor families.

In my opinion the current political development around the world shows that better education is absolutely required for humanity. Education should be financed via taxes (and taxes for high incomes should be increased accordingly to finance it).

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#418

Post by jsoc815 »

monocasa wrote: post #232
jsoc815 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...FAFSA still considers you a dependent until you're 24. I was told that only with documentation of leaving an abusive household would a dependency exception grant be applied. Would you mind saying when and by whom you were told this? Asking because this was not my experience. While I can't remember if I had to/or was able to finagle my parents' info for FAFSA, I do remember having direct discussions w/my school @…

I was told that in my specific situation, I'd need documentation of leaving an abusive household. Ironically if I had applied to college while I was 17, they have a category for emancipated minor. But since I was no longer a minor, that didn't apply to me. And to answer you question, this was repeated from several potential schools' financial aid departments.

Well I guess w/o knowing the specifics of our situations it's difficult to know why our experiences were so different, but if that is in fact what you did experience and you weren't trying to game the system (which it seems many people do try, unfortunately), I'm sorry that was your experience-- unless things worked out better for you?

Based on my experience and what you're saying, my sense is that the schools have wide latitude in deciding who they'll consider to be independent. I mean, the FAFSA form requests a bunch of info, but the gov't will calc w/o all of the fields being filled out. I'd guess that they and the schools are saying, 'If you are able to get the data from your parent(s), spouse, etc., you must be on good enough terms for them to contribute. So, gtfoh, w/your excuse(s).' While it's not right, it's convenient for them since, from what a friend in fin-aid consistently told me, there is always more demand for aid than there is supply.

All of this said, just w/respect to the general discussion, people need to give think a little more about what purpose(s) schools actually aim to serve and who benefits from things functioning as they do today. There, unfortunately, is no such thing as free formal schooling; money comes from somewhere. And a shortage of funding for the system isn't even an actual issue today in the U.S.

The questions more people should be asking are 'Why is (formal) education so expensive?' and 'Who is benefiting from this arrangement?' Once more people start figuring out the answers to those questions,-- some of which are actually quite interesting/disheartening/infuriating-- the avg person would be in a much better position. I say this, not musing on some theory, but having researched this a bit for a class I had in uni. Some of the answers are hidden in plain view.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#419

Post by ralmidani »

Why medical school and not, say, engineering or economics or math? I value having good physicians (my father is one), but medicine is not the only worthwhile human endeavor.

Edit: Also, at least in my state (Michigan) there seems to be no shortage of medical students (we went from 4 med schools to 7 earlier in the decade). The real bottleneck is residency programs.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#420

Post by h4b4n3r0 »

lazerwalker wrote: post #413
h4b4n3r0 wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> society still does That's just, like, your opinion, man. Society certainly does not need so many graduates in English Literature: there are only so many open positions at McDonalds, and they as a rule do not require a degree. If there's market demand, society can pay real cash money for it. It used to be that most writers, painters, historians, etc, etc, had to also have an useful day job. _Albert Einstein_ had a…

> That's just, like, your opinion, man. Society certainly does not need so many graduates in English Literature: there are only so many open positions at McDonalds, and they as a rule do not require a degree. This strikes me as a deeply sad view of the world. As an individual, a well-rounded education is a life-enriching thing, even if it doesn't directly tie into your professional career. As an overall society, havi…

>> This strikes me as a deeply sad view of the world.

That's not a "view of the world", that's _objective reality_. There aren't enough jobs for those folks to take, so they end up at proverbial McDonalds. Those that do get jobs often don't get a wage that a degree that's in higher demand would command. That's the world that already exists, you can't will it away no matter how you finance people's education.

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