NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students • Hacker News Board

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#131

Post by sf_rob » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

dunpeal wrote: post #108

sf_rob wrote: post #32

I'll probably be downvoted on a forum like this, but I worry about the most successful universities using their funds to subsidize those who would be fine without it. I was actually made aware of this by a wealthy Stanford alumni which has a fairly broad program for undergraduate tuition assistance. Graduates of mid/low tier universities seem more and more likely to have to compete with better credentialed people wit…

While "gaining admission to NYU medical school" is likely correlated with good socio-economic background (as do all accomplishment), the correlation is not 100%. You can get into NYU from a poor socio-economic background, if you work hard and attain academic excellence. And while all students will appreciate this discount, it will make more of a difference to those who are not "fine without it", i.e. those below the…

Per your first argument, even granting that admissions is meritocratic / fair for the sake of argument, the education you receive, networks provided, and simple prestige of the school all provide advantages that you will not find to such a degree at a lower tier school. Tuition subsidies adds an additional major advantage of not having the drag of loans slowing your future economic growth. Again, I understand that society is full of these self reinforcing advantages and that I benefit from many (including a public academic scholarship); the critique is merely incremental.

Per "it will make more of a difference to those who are not "fine without it"". Sure, but it would make more of a difference if needs based and scaled broadly (not sure what restrictions exist on the funds for this aim). Although this line of argument admittedly unravels into base utilitarianism when followed.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#132

Post by oxide » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

felipemnoa wrote: post #124

dunpeal wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While "gaining admission to NYU medical school" is likely correlated with good socio-economic background (as do all accomplishment), the correlation is not 100%. You can get into NYU from a poor socio-economic background, if you work hard and attain academic excellence. And while all students will appreciate this discount, it will make more of a difference to those who are not "fine without it", i.e. those below the…

>>You can get into NYU from a poor socio-economic background, if you work hard and attain academic excellence. Very true. Unfortunately many times the schools where a kid from a lower socio-economic background will attend will not prepare them for a school like NYU. In fact, sometimes it will probably be a net negative. Not necessarily the school itself, but the whole environment. Other students will be so disruptive…

Why does a socio-economic background disqualify someone from having drive? How about dreams? Should poor kids flush those for the good of the class? Because they MIGHT have bad apples in their social circle? For circumstances they don't control- we ought to prevent them from being able to change those circumstances via opportunity and hard work?

How common do you think this is? I would bet it is no more common than other shitty circumstances regardless of socio-economic status.

This entire sentiment is nonsenical IMO.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#133

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

mbrumlow wrote: post #129

I feel like all the collage should be free people are not thinking far enough ahead to what that actually means. 1) A free collage will end up being more like extended high school. 2) At some point new institutes of for pay higher education will pop up. They just won't be called colleges. People who can afford them will clearly have a advantage and top companies will start to seek out people who attended these organi…

To an extent, this is what's already happened. If you actually look at a lot of college curricula - including at the top schools, but especially at the rest - a lot of that is dedicated to making up for the failings of K-12 education, particularly high school.

To a degree, expecting college education of people is really just filtering for the baseline that we would like a high school degree to guarantee, but which it isn't.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#134

Post by monocasa » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

felipemnoa wrote: post #124

dunpeal wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While "gaining admission to NYU medical school" is likely correlated with good socio-economic background (as do all accomplishment), the correlation is not 100%. You can get into NYU from a poor socio-economic background, if you work hard and attain academic excellence. And while all students will appreciate this discount, it will make more of a difference to those who are not "fine without it", i.e. those below the…

>>You can get into NYU from a poor socio-economic background, if you work hard and attain academic excellence. Very true. Unfortunately many times the schools where a kid from a lower socio-economic background will attend will not prepare them for a school like NYU. In fact, sometimes it will probably be a net negative. Not necessarily the school itself, but the whole environment. Other students will be so disruptive…

I've been in many different socio-economic backgrounds.

First school I went to was the lowest performing school in Georgia, in which I was the only white child. By high school I had moved to the highest performing high school in the state, where the senators sent their kids, etc. "Real Housewives of Atlanta" was from my school district then.

Drugs, alcoholism, bullying, and domestic violence happen in every environment, and in my experience they trend towards those with the means to sustain those habits. The rich kids had been doing coke and molly since they were 13 and have been buying it from their classmates. In the richer burbs, the cops are present to keep out people who "shouldn't be there", and less to keep the citizens who "should be there" from breaking the law. The huge emphasis on "upstanding members of the community" having a "traditional household" hides high levels of domestic violence.

I agree that kids from the poorer backgrounds don't even start on first base, but it's not because of any life choices they've made in a lot of cases.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#135

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #110

acomar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctor's pay is not the driving factor behind increasing medical bills... administrative expenses at providers in insurance, opaque and arcane cost structures negotiated as deals between providers and insurance companies, and record profits at both insurance companies and providers point to a system that's cannibalizing itself. This will do nothing to costs even if implemented universally as it does nothing to addres…

As I understand it, salaries are only one of the many ways that doctors make money. Many "providers" are doctor-owned. Perhaps a more general statement would be that decreasing the cost of medical care will unavoidably decrease the income and/or wealth of doctors. I don't see a problem with this, so long as doctors can earn a decent living. An idea I've thought about is that medical school is free, but doctors primar…

> As I understand it, salaries are only one of the many ways that doctors make money. Many "providers" are doctor-owned.

No, nowadays, private practices are a dying breed. Most physicians are, in fact, salaried. And that salary isn't actually all earnings, because a large chunk of their business and professional expenses (insurance, continuing education, various licenses, etc.) all have to be paid out-of-pocket. These expenses are not generally tax-deductible, because of the AMT thresholds, so doctors' actual disposable income is dramatically less than you would think just by looking at the raw salary number. It's very different from other fields (like software engineering) in this regard.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#136

Post by perfmode » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

sf_rob wrote: post #32

I'll probably be downvoted on a forum like this, but I worry about the most successful universities using their funds to subsidize those who would be fine without it. I was actually made aware of this by a wealthy Stanford alumni which has a fairly broad program for undergraduate tuition assistance. Graduates of mid/low tier universities seem more and more likely to have to compete with better credentialed people wit…

I am the first person in my family to attend university. Stanford gave me a full ride to study CS and it has made a world of difference in my ability to access opportunities.

I am an anecdote obviously. However, I want it to be known that at Stanford, people at the bottom of the economic ladder receive aid, but people in the middle still get squeezed.

Making tuition free for all would actually be a net positive. Sure. There are people at the top who would benefit, but for the most part, financial aid is financed by the estates of people in that elite socioeconomic class.

I don't really have a point here. This is just my experience of the system.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#137

Post by kfrzcode » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #120

sf_rob wrote: post #32

I'll probably be downvoted on a forum like this, but I worry about the most successful universities using their funds to subsidize those who would be fine without it. I was actually made aware of this by a wealthy Stanford alumni which has a fairly broad program for undergraduate tuition assistance. Graduates of mid/low tier universities seem more and more likely to have to compete with better credentialed people wit…

IDK. The same thought process led me to not being able to complete college due to financial reasons. Despite being emancipated, FAFSA still considers you a dependent until you're 24. I was told that only with documentation of leaving an abusive household would a dependency exception grant be applied. So according to FAFSA I was supposed to use all this money that I didn't have to pay for college. By 24 I had dropped…

> Just make college free.

Sure, have some funding ideas?

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#138

Post by Rebelgecko » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #84

sf_rob wrote: post #32

I'll probably be downvoted on a forum like this, but I worry about the most successful universities using their funds to subsidize those who would be fine without it. I was actually made aware of this by a wealthy Stanford alumni which has a fairly broad program for undergraduate tuition assistance. Graduates of mid/low tier universities seem more and more likely to have to compete with better credentialed people wit…

> a wealthy Stanford alumni Grammar tip: In English, the word "alumnus" is typically declined as it would be in Latin. Especially amongst academics, I'd say. So if you're writing for that audience, the appropriate forms of "alumnus" are, I think, as follows [0]: "alumnus" - One male, or one person of unspecified sex. "alumna" - One female. "alumnae" - Multiple females. "alumni" - Multiple persons whose sex is all mal…

My Latin is a little rusty and mixing Latin grammar with English is doomed to be an exercise in futility, but IIRC that declension is only correct if you're using alumn- as an adjective for another noun which is masculine or feminine (which doesn't necessarily match the gender of the person, e.g. agricola is a masculine noun but can refer to a female farmer)

If you're using it by itself as a noun, it's 2nd declension and the ending changes only based on plurality or case, not the gender of the actual graduate(s)

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#139

Post by bawana » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

for nyu to make tuition go away means that they are already having a large cost processing loans/grants/discounts along with the compliance costs for sallie mae,etc. NYU is a PRIVATE university as well so they can be super selective in whom they accept - and now they become even more selective - admitting those with legacy contacts, etc. Finally, the truth is that they need warm bodies to run the hospital and if the cost of living in NYC is so high that nobody wants to do residency there (training after med school), then how are they going to get PCPs? They'll need to pay an arm and a leg to get them (dark pun?) By having a steady supply of med students who are already situated in NYC, they assure a steady supply of residency candidates.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#140

Post by joaomacp » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:30 PM UTC

felipemnoa wrote: post #124

dunpeal wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While "gaining admission to NYU medical school" is likely correlated with good socio-economic background (as do all accomplishment), the correlation is not 100%. You can get into NYU from a poor socio-economic background, if you work hard and attain academic excellence. And while all students will appreciate this discount, it will make more of a difference to those who are not "fine without it", i.e. those below the…

>>You can get into NYU from a poor socio-economic background, if you work hard and attain academic excellence. Very true. Unfortunately many times the schools where a kid from a lower socio-economic background will attend will not prepare them for a school like NYU. In fact, sometimes it will probably be a net negative. Not necessarily the school itself, but the whole environment. Other students will be so disruptive…

This is a problem we have in Europe as well (at least southern EU where I'm from): colleges are almost free (1000€/yr here, so affordable), even the best ones.

But who can get to the best ones? People from poorer environments unfortunately get a poorer education as well (middle and high schools are of less quality), and it makes it way harder for them.

Equal opportunity is really tricky to get right.