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Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

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Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#411

Post by mamon »

tinus_hn wrote: post #316
cabaalis wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just 2 nitpicks: 1) The law is what a very small group of people decides it should be, and 2) Slippery slopes in law are a very real thing. Just listen to Supreme Court oral arguments. That's (supposedly) why it takes so much forethought and time to enact them.

This group of people consists of who a very large group of people think it should consist of. You can actually go and vote or even go into politics yourself!

As the old saying goes: "If the democratic elections really could make a difference they would have been forbidden by now".

American law for example reflects views and interests of small group of oligarchy, and not general public. It's been like that for quite a long time, to quote [1]: "The preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy"

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/america...

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#412

Post by acornax »

solatic wrote: post #408
jogjayr wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on the financial crisis, most of my knowledge comes from The Big Short . But wasn't there actual fraud also being perpetrated? E.g. the ratings agencies that knowingly assigned A grades to bundles of decidedly low-grade debt just to keep clients happy?

The agencies' ratings are essentially protected by the First Amendment, as the rating represents the agency's opinion on whichever security offering. Fraud isn't purchasing a house that's advertised as "clean" only to discover that there was asbestos in the basement. Fraud is advertising as such after a legal definition for the word "clean" has been established to include "asbestos-free" and yet the house has asbesto…

It's a bit more complicated too - rather than the AAA ratings being completed unfounded, they often seemed to have justification (at least on the surface), as various kinds of CDOs were typically packaged with insurance baked in, to make them appear less risky to the ratings agencies' models. One big problem ended up being that a lot of those insurance payouts were theoretical, as the entity on the other end (often ultimately AIG) didn't have have the money to pay out when so many mortgages were defaulting.

But, yeah. The agencies didn't really have much incentive to be skeptical of their models.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#413

Post by candiodari »

presidentender wrote: post #277
s73v3r_ wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SEC, DOJ, et al also have limited amounts of resources. They just can't go after everyone.

The fact that they can't go after everyone doesn't mean that they should punish Shkreli extra hard for what amounts to being a jerk.

One would assume however, that given the choice between

1) guy who lied to investors, still made them money (ie. Shkreli)

2) guy who lied to investors, lost 90% of their money (for example, ironically, Clinton's son in law [2], who has lost more money than the GDP of about 70 countries, and yet [3] happened)

They would have a strong preference for 2). But the SEC is a HUGE example of selective justice. Harsh "correct" treatment for whomever offends the elite, just for insulting and rejecting them (Shkreli IS an idiot, VERY publicly rejecting and insulting one of the elites WHILE she was running an election for president AND giving her an excuse ("threatening her") to send the law after him), or just by being poor. But nothing ever gets done about members of the elite, even if they're very low level.

And I get it, what Mr. Mezvinsky did was probably in a panic, and it was political decisions of someone else that did him in, nothing he could have done (as I'm sure is true for 90%+ of criminals of course, it never seems to count as an excuse). And it did do serious damage to his career. But he should be in prison, and owe hundreds of millions of dollars to people.

The issue I have with that is, if you or I, or probably anyone who may read this did what he did, we'd be locked in a maximum security prison for 40+ years, as well as being destitute.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Mezvinsky

[3] https://www.recode.net/2017/5/18/15660060/social-capital-hir...

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#414

Post by bromuro »

tpush wrote: post #184

The majority of comments here being sad about Shkreli kinda reaffirms my views about HN, I have to say. Shkreli always seemed like a personified 4chan teenager "memelord" with money. Good to see that playing out your delusions of grandeur and arrogance toward the justice system is met with consequences. Maybe in prison he will mature a bit.

Yeah it’s 2018 and still we send people in prison.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#415

Post by fwdpropaganda »

verylittlemeat wrote: post #371
tpush wrote: post #184

The majority of comments here being sad about Shkreli kinda reaffirms my views about HN, I have to say. Shkreli always seemed like a personified 4chan teenager "memelord" with money. Good to see that playing out your delusions of grandeur and arrogance toward the justice system is met with consequences. Maybe in prison he will mature a bit.

I think you're going for the low hanging fruit by judging HN that way. The more interesting thing is that the majority of comments are shocked by the 7 year sentence rather than the minority who think he was "an ok guy." I keep seeing this naive understanding of the law over and over again in tech circles. The justice system is made up of several people with a ton of leeway on how laws are applied. The letter of the…

> I've spent a lot of time around lawyers and judges and I can tell you they have absolutely no tolerance for the kind of "well, actually" smart-asses that the tech community excels at churning out.

It's really satisfying when someone articulates so well that nagging sensation that you've had for a long time but failed to expressed. Like scratching an itch. Thank you.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#416

Post by fwdpropaganda »

saas_sam wrote: post #141
teemwerk wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>he actually seemed like a nice person. I also enjoyed his trollish sense of humor. I see where you're coming from and don't want to get pedantic, but isn't as trollish sense of humor by definition at least a little mean-spirited?

The funniest comedy routines I have ever seen by the most prominent comedians are almost always disparaging of a person, group, or idea held dear by many people. Simmer on that and ask yourself if mean-spiritedness really matters in this context.

> The funniest comedy routines I have ever seen by the most prominent comedians are almost always disparaging of a person, group, or idea held dear by many people.

I suggest that says more about you than about anything else.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#417

Post by DanBC »

wils1245 wrote: post #390
danso wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. Just because O.J. was found not guilty and no big bankers went to jail in 2008 doesn't mean judges in other courtrooms are going to relax their standards when you flip them off https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Penelope-Soto-Woman-Who-...

OJ is an interesting example, as his sentence for armed robbery was considered extreme compared to the facts of his case, and influenced by the fact he away with murder. I think it’s troubling that judges have the ability to hand down sentences far above some established norm, even if those sentences are legal.

> I think it’s troubling that judges have the ability to hand down sentences far above some established norm

I agree, but that's not what happened in Shkreli's case. The crime he committed really does have a very long sentence.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#418

Post by edanm »

MaysonL wrote: post #375
Angostura wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were the specific laws that you believe the 2008 crash bankers broke?

Fraud, securities fraud, and forgery would do as a start.

Who committed fraud, specifically? This always comes up and, while I agree that maybe things possibly weren't investigated enough, I don't think there are any clear examples of people who committed fraud and got away with it.

A lot of people being stupid does not equal fraud.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#419

Post by jjeaff »

bhouston wrote: post #5

He was so obnoxious that I guess it is easy to be happy about that, but he was so small time in the grand scheme of things. But nearly no bankers responsible for the 2008 financial crisis ever went to jail: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/how-wal...

Which laws did the bankers break?

The 2008 financial crisis was very complex and had many bad actors on many sides, but the majority of outright fraud was committed by small time mortgage originators (or employees of large originators) and the individual homeowners who lied to get loans.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#420

Post by camelite »

adventured wrote: post #266
bhouston wrote: post #5

He was so obnoxious that I guess it is easy to be happy about that, but he was so small time in the grand scheme of things. But nearly no bankers responsible for the 2008 financial crisis ever went to jail: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/how-wal...

> But nearly no bankers responsible for the 2008 financial crisis ever went to jail That is a myth. Dozens of bankers were arrested and put in prison over crimes related to the 2008 financial crisis. That includes a number of bankers at large enterprises. It excludes the very top tier bankers, at the systemically important financial firms, who all managed to skate. It's not illegal, generally speaking, to make dumb i…

As far as I can make out from that article all the executives were jailed for tarp-related crimes. Since tarp post dates the crisis, it's not really accurate to cure it in response to a claim about bankers responsible for the crisis. They admit most of those jailed were low level. Certainly the one top executive using cited was tarp related. Which makes sense, since there were quite good anti fraud controls in tarp.

> It's not illegal, generally speaking, to make dumb investment decisions, and or to take a lot of risk, and lose money

You're not going to find criminals if you don't look for them. Bill black:

> All right so you have massive fraud driving this crisis, hyperinflating the bubble, an FBI warning and how many criminal referrals did the same agency do, in this crisis. Remember it did well over 10,000 in the prior crisis. Well the answer is zero. They completely shut down making criminal referrals

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2011/09/william-black-why...

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