My Biggest Regret as a Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#411

Post by fhood » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #348

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like you, I don't think the author of the blog post wanted money or power for their own sake. Relevant to your final paragraph: People Want Power Because They Want Autonomy [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340137

Yes. In post-industrial society, we seem to have lost the true sense of independence. Almost all of us now depend on the good graces of an employer to be able to pay for our needs. That is not independence, it is fiefdom. Meanwhile, true independence is derided as families who provide for their own and are able to pass an inheritance on that grants their children and their grandchildren a degree of autonomy are mocke…

If I have a skill that a large number of people are willing to pay for them that in itself represents independence. Earning potential is far more valuable than money. And guess what, if your children decide not to use those banks and universities, and don't get jobs then they may be "independent, but they are also dead weights. If they don't have skills that contribute to society, they are irrelevant. I agree that people should have access to enough money to realize their potential, but not more than that.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#412

Post by qznc » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #215

Zelmor wrote: post #24

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does,…

I was a programmer, and then spent a year and a half as a games producer, and could have kept going down that path, but decided to go back in programming. Half the time I spent as a producer I was worried about the fact that I wasn't doing any programming, and my skills were atrophying. Production had some real perks in comparison, being able to meet a lot of people I admired, going on business trips, etc, but I got…

> If I were in that position today I'd be a lot more specific

That isn't the job of a producer or manager. Maybe quality assurance or testing? It sounds like you were micromanaging them.

If I were in that position I would try to educate them about what makes a game hard and how hard games should be. I would educate them about typography. I would not tell them what to do. They must find the solution themselves.

Hm, I'm violating my own advice with the paragraph above. :)

As a developer, I hate it when somebody gives me too vague problems "game is too hard" or too detailed assignments like "make the font size bigger". I need an accurate problem description with all requirements. If it isn't accurate, my solution will probably miss the point. If I haven't all requirements I will probably violate some of the unspoken rules.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#413

Post by munificent » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

Zelmor wrote: post #24

He would have been unhappy with the other choice as well, because then it is the programming side he would be missing out on. I would advise everyone to read The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173536 You chose one option out of many, and the others may no longer be a possibility. However, the writer's unhappiness does not spawn from his inability to be successful at what he does,…

> I just have to say this: So typically american.

That's funny. I'm from the US and when I got to that line, I found myself assuming the author was an immigrant or foreigner.

Talking publicly about financial success isn't something I associate with people natively from the US. Certainly, among the people I grew up around, it would be considered unconscionably tasteless to do so.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#414

Post by fhood » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #329

exelius wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just have to say this: So typically american. The attitude presented in the article is indeed typically American -- but not for the reason I think you intended. The quintessential American quality is the belief that every person has the right to control their own destiny. Fuck, it's right there in the first sentence of the first document declaring this country's independence. Americans are often seen as greedy re…

> Therefore, money is seen primarily as a means to self-determination. And even deeper down, it's a means of survival. The safety net here has pretty much disintegrated since it began to be dismantled in the '80s. A lot of people in the US haven't saved enough for retirement considering this new reality... they haven't even saved enough to get them through a few months of unemployment. There's a loss of hope in rural…

I think that opiate abuse has more to do with increased availability then a loss of hope.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#415

Post by tcfunk » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:17 PM UTC

JimboOmega wrote: post #408

cookiecaper wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only amount of money people really need for autonomy is the amount of money it takes to supply their immediate needs and some reasonable wants; the amount of money necessary to provide for a normal middle-class lifestyle. I would ballpark this around $80k/yr. It's not enough to make big donations to candidates, companies, or charities, and it won't buy the most expensive stuff out there, but it's plenty to keep y…

Incidentally, isn't $80k around the point where happiness from income levels off? The advantage of big money isn't just charities and companies - it's having your time back, since you're not tied to getting an income from it.

I feel like $80k must be an outdated number. My wife and I pull in just under $100k together, and we can't even (comfortably) afford a home.

Between rent, student loan payments, health insurance, bills, and car loans, and food, I think we maybe have $500 left to throw around each month. If we were paying against a mortgage, that would basically be zero.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#416

Post by freyr » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:20 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #405

freyr wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If he had gone into leadership, he might now be looking at examples such a notch, who got rich from dev work without becoming a 'manager' A well-paid manager saying, "But I could have made more developing Minecraft!" might as well complain, "But I could have made more if I won the lottery!" If high compensation is the goal, being a manager is simply a much more straightforward and reliable path than being a program…

The highest paid jobs, without disproportionate barriers/gatekeepers/high-bars are jobs that become desired; demand = X, but where supply is low; supply Which means job that used to be either low-demand, low-paid, or (usually) both. Otherwise demand has to keep rising, because without barriers, an increase in pay will cause a delayed increase in supply (as people are attracted to the field) which then meets the deman…

That's a great theory, but in the real world, certain professions and job roles have categorically enjoyed much higher compensation than average over long stretches of time. Upper management is an obvious example; it's been well compensated for as long as the concept of upper management has existed, and as much as we might fantasize about it, there are no signs that managers around the world will suddenly be paid less than their subordinates.

Yes, there may be micro-fluctuations where every company is suddenly scrambling to hire the latest flavor of the month (e.g. data analyst is now data scientist). These are hard to predict. But you know who will reliably earn more than the data scientist in three years? The data scientist's boss.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#417

Post by hueving » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:21 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #354

KyleBrandt wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. If you get a lot of money it doesn't mean you have to go buy a bunch of crap you don't really want. Rather it can give you influence. You can invest in charities or companies you believe in to shape the future. For example http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-fl...

The only amount of money people really need for autonomy is the amount of money it takes to supply their immediate needs and some reasonable wants; the amount of money necessary to provide for a normal middle-class lifestyle. I would ballpark this around $80k/yr. It's not enough to make big donations to candidates, companies, or charities, and it won't buy the most expensive stuff out there, but it's plenty to keep y…

You are mixing up the amount of money required to not be worried about money and the amount of money required to just let you do whatever you want. Yes, an 80k salary means you aren't worried about how you will survive, but it still has you tied to a job that will limit your autonomy quite a bit. To achieve the level of autonomy being discussed here, you would need the 80k/yr without any obligations.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#418

Post by nostrademons » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:23 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #342

dccoolgai wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

|JS is widely considered a pain. I find that is widely enjoyed by the "silent majority" and decried as a pain by a very vocal subset of developers. It's a little surprising that 1 + '1' is '11', until you spend a little time and learn the rules instead of fighting them - then you start doing your work in a way that uses that to save time. It's not great for everyone, but I like it - and I know a lot of other good dev…

> It's a little surprising that 1 + '1' is '11', until you spend a little time and learn the rules instead of fighting them - then you start doing your work in a way that uses that to save time. You are omcpletely underestimating the complexity of JS's implicit coercions. If you haven't already seen it, watch the Wat talk [1]. Finally, the fact that you need the console to even understand the meaning of a code fragme…

> Finally, the fact that you need the console to even understand the meaning of a code fragment is a perfect example of language failure.

Isn't that the case for every language with polymorphism? Even C, once you add function pointers to the mix.

I've certainly heard polymorphism and OOP criticized on these grounds, but unless you're a hardcore kernel or embedded developer, that ship sailed about 25 years ago. Everybody uses debuggers and log statements these days. Expecting to be able to look at a code sample in isolation and know what it does is unrealistic for any large-scale system.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#419

Post by clock_tower » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

tcfunk wrote: post #415

JimboOmega wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, isn't $80k around the point where happiness from income levels off? The advantage of big money isn't just charities and companies - it's having your time back, since you're not tied to getting an income from it.

I feel like $80k must be an outdated number. My wife and I pull in just under $100k together, and we can't even (comfortably) afford a home. Between rent, student loan payments, health insurance, bills, and car loans, and food, I think we maybe have $500 left to throw around each month. If we were paying against a mortgage, that would basically be zero.

Location is everything. You can live like a prince in Tennessee or Kentucky on $80k/yr -- not so much in the really prosperous parts of the country.

Re: My Biggest Regret as a Programmer

#420

Post by carc » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #296

nunez wrote: post #196

This post resonated with me. I've realized that, more often than not, technical individual contributors have very very little influence over the general direction of a product, let alone a business, and have a very well-understood (and, in my opinion, low) salary cap. Job hopping helps with ensuring that your compensation doesn't stray too far off from market rate, but this only brings you closer to the proverbial gl…

That's one of the reasons I got out of programming, was the salary ceiling. Sure, your first job hop as a programmer will probably get you a 20% or so increase! That gets your hopes up. Then your next one will be only 10% or so, and by the time you're 20 years into your career, you're barely getting any pay raises by changing company. And if you think that changes by just being a different kind of individual contribu…

Anecdotal, but I am not exagerrating when I say about a quarter of the developers I'm friends with (i.e. hang out with outside of work) make substantially more than a new partner at a big firm.

Source: They discussed their negotiations with me so I know their compensation, and I used to work as a CPA at one of the big 4