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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#411
post #406
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that argument apply to any government spending? If my enterprise relies on roads existing, and I cannot pay the full costs of maintaining the roads, say. (Ah, but roads benefit others, and we should only calculate your share! But welfare benefits others as well, it's a collective funding, so the same applies.)

Interesting what you've given us to consider, in regards to "charity benefiting its owner", to suggest these two things as comparable: (1) insufficient wages (per Adam Smith) as set by private enterprise (2) private enterprise usage of services/infrastructure as provided by government above and beyond their share of taxes Walmart was in the news recently enough ( http://www.msnbc.com/martin-bashir/mcdonalds-employee-…

My point was the reverse, actually. We're fine with companies benefiting off roads, because they pay taxes. Roads are a public good funded with public funds. I think we should be just as fine with companies benefiting from the public good of welfare. If we don't think it's a public good, we shouldn't fund it.

Now, if they were directly contributing to an increase in public funding, then we might wish to discourage that. But if they wouldn't hire the worker, they would necessarily be paid less or not at all (else they would quit; abstracting away from inefficiencies which may make this inaccurate). So Walmart's decision to offer a wage that's the best the worker will get, yet is not livable by itself, still benefits the government, because otherwise the entire cost falls on the government. Mandating a minimum wage, and letting those workers become unemployed, just makes things worse.

Of course, this assumes that increasing the minimum wage leads to a decrease in jobs, which is itself controversial.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#412
post #95

A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. This model of taking from the productive sources and rewarding everyone else will have to break at a certain point. how come you get rewarded for enjoying the gossip column and I spend extra effort doing something else which i…

The Basic Income is the terminal phase of a democracy, wherein people are rewarded simply for existing, extracting their subsistence from the productive forces in the economy. It is the final vote-buying mechanism of the political elite to create a permanent dependent underclass. Thanks to our democratically-installed public school system, liberty is a topic which cannot be discussed in polite company. Don't be disco…

>wherein people are rewarded simply for existing, extracting their subsistence from the productive forces in the economy.

And when those forces are machines, why shouldn't we do exactly this?

>liberty is a topic which cannot be discussed in polite company.

I have no problem talking about liberty, only with people who seem to think that word means "property rights" and little else.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#413
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have kids outside of financial consideration. The desire for having children is an enormous natural force for many (not all). That's not even including all the children as result of youthful mistakes or just plain happenstance. Technocrats are quick to frame having children as some sort of result of rational decision making, like buying a car. Since it's obviously not, this viewpoint readily becomes a normativ…

People also don't want to let go of their hard earned money. It is also an enormous natural force. Our society is doing that to productive people forcibly and for your just theory you are picking and choosing which force of nature we should tolerate and which one we shouldn't. Your patience, forgiveness and empathy has any worthiness if it is voluntary and forcing it on certain set of people is no longer a just commu…

>Our society is doing that to productive people forcibly

If they don't like it, they can stop producing.

But I'm guessing they're not quite so willing to give up all the other freedoms their money grants them.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#414
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrifically naive. The minimum wage exists because there is an inherent power imbalance between employers and employees in today's economy. This distorts the labor market and puts workers and corporations on an unequal footing when it comes to negotiating pay, to the extreme disadvantage of the worker. The minimum wage is an attempt to force a correction to that inequality and unfairness. It is far from perf…

There is very little empirical evidence to support this point of view in non-monopsony situations.

http://i.imgur.com/PFSjZXC.png

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets not assume that the definition of an alcoholic is well defined. To most americans, Danes would be considered raging alcoholics , yet nothing make them less rational than their american counterparts.

Fine, but we were discussing someone talking about how it's rational to blow your UBI on alcohol in order to deal with the stress of running a business. Drinking your entire basic income away is not a rational decision, no matter how stressed you are.

Well part of the point is that they won't be quite so stressed because their needs are met.

But more importantly, what exactly is the alternative? Do you think alcoholics are going to magically get better when we take their money away? They need treatment.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#417

Negative income tax makes more sense to me. (NIT is a system where you either get or give money from/to the governement, depending on your income.) First it's both a simple welfare and tax system in one package. Basic income as typically understood is only half of the story. It's also easier to reason about, the money flows are way more obvious, it's immediately clear whether you are a net contributor or receiver and…

Incentives. Incentives. Incentives. People respond to incentives, it's been proven time and time again. A negative income tax isn't the worst idea, but it has all the wrong incentives. The more money you earn, the less help you get. Which seems sensible on the surface but can lead to situations where people ask themselves "why should I even bother working a job I hate when I can get the same money without working?" T…

I sympathise with the general sentiment but most of what you're saying about BI and NIT is simply incorrect.

> The advantage of basic income is that no matter what you do you still get that money

Only a minority of people would get money. Because if you get $10000 (basic income) and pay $20000 (taxes), you're not actually not getting money.

> A negative income tax isn't the worst idea, but it has all the wrong incentives. The more money you earn, the less help you get.

Well, obviously, this is also true for basic income. Most people with jobs would not get any help, they would give help. Welfare works by income redistribution. You take money from one part of the population and give it to another part.

As for incentives, that's the thing that NIT does right. It doesn't have the "lose welfare when you start to work" problem.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument is that human labor has an actual cost. That is the cost to keep a human alive and in some level of comfort. Government benefits of many different types have "artificially" lowered this cost. Where employees refuse to pay enough for a human to live on, the government picks up the slack. Raising the minimum wage may be "artificial," but its not the first control placed on some otherwise natural la…

Critical omission on your part: not everyone needs to live on this wage. Think about high school kids trying to get a summer job. They don't need to survive on this wage, they simply need something productive to do over the summer. Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?

"Should my business be required to shell out $15/hr for a high school kid, when the value of his/her labor is way less than that?"

Yes. Otherwise why would you hire the someone who actually does need to live on that wage?

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#419
post #88
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is to stop people from wasting their basic income on frivolities while also drawing from existing welfare programs > a UBI, on top of existing welfare programs Most proposals see UBI as replacing the existing welfare programs. No more means-testing, etc (and a cost-saving in reduced administration). How practical that is has yet to be seen.

You would still need programs for people with mental and emotional problems, but that would be a small subset of current welfare recipients. And with far fewer people to focus on, we might be more effective with that care. So, yeah if you spend your year's stipend on a week in a Hilton suite, then can't afford to eat, you might get additional help, and lose complete control over your BI. I knew a homeless guy in Anch…

> if you spend your year's stipend on a week in a Hilton suite

Most countries pay benefits on a weekly/monthly basis. Perhaps not to avoid this precise scenario, but simply to aid budgeting.

You're right to say that some people might blow all their welfare cheque in one go. In the UK, that was at one point mitigated by paying housing benefit (the largest part of welfare) directly to the landlord, which at least minimised the chances of the tenant being evicted for not paying rent. That however has changed not that long ago, and a lot of other protections have also been withdrawn.

I think UBI is a good idea, but I also think it could use some protections to address issues that might be faced by more vulnerable claimants.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employment of high school kids has been plummeting. This line of thinking you are exposing here has not kept up with the times and is more of a red herring. The teens most likely to work are not in school, and thus they actually need a living wage. Youth enrolled in high school had an employment rate of 18 percent. This is down from 36 percent in 1995: http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=youth-employment#stha... A…

Maybe it's been plummeting because of minimum wage or other laws discouraging labor of HS students. And is that a good thing or something we should try to reverse? Employment has a ramp-up like anything else.

Well, what is better, or more desirable? A high school student earning some gas money, or someone else getting that job and supporting themselves?
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