Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#401

Post by omegant » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 7:30 PM UTC

summerdown2 wrote: post #379

danbmil99 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes a static proportion of "lazy" or unethical people. I think the counterargument is one of moral hazard: if you reward laziness, more and more people will decide to be lazy. There is also a motivational issue -- many people (I suspect) will find it harder to work for a living if they sense that their hard-earned money is taxed and given away to freeloaders.

> if you reward laziness, more and more people will decide to be lazy. Potentially, but I'm still interested in my thought experiment. What if a) It gets better, using some metric of better. at the same time as: b) Some people are lazy. Even if b) is a larger number than at present, does that matter? It doesn't to me, but my intuition is that there are some people who will not tolerate others being lazy even if that'…

you don´t need an experiment, it has happened in southern Spain. Thirty years ago it was a very poor region, land was in hands of a small group of landlords. It really was necessary to give a hand to that region. It was not a free money help, they had to work a number of days at the fields, and then they were entitled to receive a help.

Fast forward 30 years, the system has been abused by the people (cheating, not even working the necessary days) and politicians (they lock the votes with those helps, socialist party has been in power for 30 years nonstop at Andalusia, PER has been one of the tools used to achieve that democratic kind of record). The regions is no longer that poor, but has not grown that much either (I am referring to the rural Andalusia, of course the cities and the touristic parts have a competitive economy). The problem is that northern Spain is paying for those helps, and people is fed up with that, as all that money has to be diverted from local projects. For example this sensation of (real) injustice is being used as fuel by the Catalan and Vasc nationalist parties, to ask for the independence.

That´s why I really think it´s that important to monitor this helps. They are necessary to help people to leave poverty behind, but if they are taken as a right to be enjoyed no matter what, people will no longer feel the need to work and give to the community. And after all somebody will have to produce that "right" and that will be and injustice too.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#402

Post by ChuckMcM » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 7:31 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

I hope this passes because it will put to the test some of the possible benefits of a basic income. This is an interesting question:

   "One of the main questions about something like this 
    is about who would do boring, low-paid work with 
    this sort of basic income. What I would really hope 
    is that people would still do many of those jobs, 
    but for far fewer hours--largely as a way to get 
    money for incidental expenses and luxuries beyond 
    the basic income. One problem I find with most jobs 
    is that it's much easier to get more pay than less
    hours, even if I really want the latter. There is a
    large drop-off between full-time and part-time work."

As I understand the theory, people will do this for exactly the reason you give, which is that it will add to their income for extras. The basic tenet of the BI concept (as I understand it) is that you provide subsistence wages and do not add an economic penalty for working, thus people will work because it won't cut down on their basic income (like it does with welfare) instead it will improve their income picture.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#403

Post by powertower » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 7:33 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #306

rayiner wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could deport people who throw around the "racist" label casually. There is nothing racist about believing that big, complex, interdependent societies function best when people share basic values, beliefs, and culture. It's the difference between multiculturalism as practiced in the U.S., where e.g. asian immigrants to the west coast have assimilated the basic values of american society while remaining disti…

> where e.g. many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws. (Mildly interesting that you mention Muslims and sharia, but don't mention Jews and Beth Din). There are some serious failures of the UK method - faith schools are a scary abomination; Beth Din and Sharia courts have led to child abusers and wife beaters not being reported to police, but just movi…

That's an interesting word - Assimilation. I have no idea if you're maybe trying to rather quote "integration", or if in the UK the word "assimilation" is used some other way then it is in the US, but...

Assimilation is something that the Borg does. It can be forceful and is primarily an act of the collective.

"Integration" on the other hand comes from a desire to be part of a society. It's more of a soft osmosis type effect.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#404

Post by DanBC » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 7:37 PM UTC

powertower wrote: post #403

DanBC wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where e.g. many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws. (Mildly interesting that you mention Muslims and sharia, but don't mention Jews and Beth Din). There are some serious failures of the UK method - faith schools are a scary abomination; Beth Din and Sharia courts have led to child abusers and wife beaters not being reported to police, but just movi…

That's an interesting word - Assimilation. I have no idea if you're maybe trying to rather quote "integration", or if in the UK the word "assimilation" is used some other way then it is in the US, but... Assimilation is something that the Borg does. It can be forceful and is primarily an act of the collective. "Integration" on the other hand comes from a desire to be part of a society. It's more of a soft osmosis typ…

I was quoting Rayiner.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#405

Post by seeken » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 7:50 PM UTC

alextingle wrote: post #254

seeken wrote: post #210

There have been experiments with NIT (Negative Income Tax) in the US. My impression was that they were a disaster, but in looking for them I found this article,[1] which explains some of the history of NIT in the US. http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_1_income-tax.html

Negative income tax seems quite hard to administer when compared to a basic income. Why bother with all the bureaucracy required to deal with accounting for millions of minuscule incomes, when a simple flat payment would do the same job?

You have to do the income tax anyway, you might as well run the two programs together.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#406

Post by drcode » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 7:55 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #192

ck2 wrote: post #56

I like to think I am progressive but this minimum income idea is a horrible idea in my eyes. It is like student loans in the USA, everything will rise to the maximum price that people can obtain money.

I think it's an interesting idea. Worth trying in a small country with competent government where a cockup has no effect on me.

Yes, in all for letting the Swiss screw up their country with this idea.

Then I no longer have to spend energy explaining why this idea doesn't work.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#407

Post by romac » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

zalew wrote: post #39

psuter wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not through referendum, though. The dynamics are very different. Interestingly enough, when asked, the parliament tends to be more open to change and experimentation than the people.

Yeah, I've stayed in Bern a few times in the 90s and I got a sentiment for it so I take a glance now and then what's going on, and the referendal results are often ridiculously surprising. The weed situation IMO for years has been the weirdest ever, since Swiss have the most liberal and practical drug treatment policies I know of, and AFAIK a high percentage of citizens admits to smoking joints. It looked like people…

"From October 1 [2013], an adult caught smoking cannabis in Switzerland can escape formal legal proceedings by simply paying a fine."

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Mixed_feelings_over_n...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#408

Post by Filligree » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

m_mueller wrote: post #169

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

As a Swiss I'm not completely opposed to the idea of basic income, I just think it's too early. Right now we still need most of the workforce to create our current level of wealth - our unemployed rate is pretty low, usually around 2-3%, and work efficiency is one of the best in the world - it's a well oiled machine where every cog still counts, including lower incomes. Even with the current GDP, paying that bill wou…

As a Norwegian, I.. agree, but still hope you'll do it.

For the greater good of humanity (and Norwegians), Switzerland will make a useful laboratory. It might even work. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#409

Post by Dewie » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 8:02 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #386

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

Converting $33,600 basic income (assuming this goes to every adult, 210 million people) to the entire population (318 million) is about $22,200 per capita. Per capita income in the United States in 2012 was $42,693 [1]. Assuming that would remain unchanged, taxes to fund a basic income of $22,200 that would leave $20,500 per capita. Per-capita state tax collections are already 2,435.11 [2] and federal tax collections…

You can't just use the proposed Swiss basic income for your calculations for another country. Switzerland has a higher cost of living than most countries.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#410

Post by wcfields » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 8:05 PM UTC

marvin wrote: post #288

crntaylor wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first point isn't too far off the mark. If goods are really 60% more expensive in Switzerland than in the US, then you'd expect people/corporations/institutions in Switzerland to use their CHF to buy dollars, buy goods in the US at a large discount and have them shipped to Switzerland, or for Swiss companies to hire US employees and pay them in USD, thus driving the USD/CHF exchange rate towards purchasing power…

Just for the record, I am not currently arguing with you, but I just thought I would point out something from real-world experience which starkly contradicts the "ideal" economic equilibrium you describe. In my experience as a Norwegian, the parity argument isn't even close to true in the real world. There are lots of non-perishable goods here which are imported but are a lot more expensive than they are in the US. F…

A friend of mine touring through Norway decided to get a pizza and a 6 pack of beer. Ended up costing him ~$65.