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Don't Fly During Ramadan

varnull.adityamukerjee.net

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Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#401

Post by mech4bg »

I've had this happen to me before as well, but in Australia, and the similarities and differences are interesting.

I set off the explosive scanner for TNT when flying to see my family at Christmas (and was told straight away what I was found positive for). Was immediately taken into another room with my carry-on, and had my checked-in luggage located and brought in as well.

A lot of things were very similar - I had the full pat down, the numerous questions, and everything was looked over. However they did it all just once. They took everything out of my bag and it was full of Christmas presents, which they then wanted to open, but I persuaded them to put them through the X-ray scanner still wrapped.

I also had a 'guard' watching over me and making sure I didn't leave, and multiple people coming in to ask me questions and verify my answers.

In the end they were able to X-ray all my stuff to their satisfaction, re-checked my bag, and I was was on my way in about 20-30 minutes.

They never did figure out why I set it off btw, and it's never happened again. Very strange.

The thing that sticks out to me from the experience, was how on alert everyone got once the explosive detector went off. Suddenly everyone was _very_ uneasy and wary of me, especially when it came up positive a second time.

So although I think the recent incident was poorly handled, I do understand to some extent the measures in place - i.e. being taken away to another room to be checked, having all their stuff looked over, etc.

And although it seems nuts they didn't let him leave, if he did show positive for explosives then what else should they have done? It's a difficult problem - surely they are compelled to investigate him if that happens?

Does anyone know if it would even be legal to search his place while he was away btw? Surely not, since he checked out and they were happy to let him go.

And how ridiculous Jet Blue denied him boarding (and yet were happy to let him board the next day!)

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#402

Post by geoka9 »

swalkergibson wrote: post #305
chimeracoder wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned in the post, they claimed I "wasn't being detained". I asked more than once to use my phone; they denied me. Maybe I could make that more clear.

It sounds like the best course of action is to just have an attorney present if a situation like this happens again. You knew you were being detained, no matter what the authorities said. As far as I know, there are no provisions anywhere that forbid you from having a lawyer present when and wherever you want.

I often see "have an attorney present" arguments, but they make me wonder - can you really afford to have an attorney on retainer if you're not independently wealthy? Or is it as simple as calling a plumber and asking them to come over?

Should I shop for an attorney and keep their contact information with me just in case I might need one?

Will the attorney be willing to come over at a moment's notice if I've never used their services before?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#403

Post by eksith »

rayiner wrote: post #361
greedo wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, considering that red teams are routinely able to smuggle weapons and simulated explosive devices on aircraft fairly routinely, the current procedures are shit. Security theater at its finest. And you can't detain someone without reasonable suspicion which gives you the authority to investigate whether a crime has occurred. This detention can't be indefinite, and can't even come close to lasting 24 hours. Once y…

Setting off an explosives detector isn't reasonable suspicion?

Been there done that.

They also asked my religion. I said I'm Buddhist (sort of true, though I'm not a very good one) and after a brief chat, I was sent off with my beans. No pat down, no detention.

FYI, If you want to avoid this, handle as few volatile compounds as you can (E.G. Alcohol based products). Better yet, stop using that artificial malarkey altogether. You'll smell less offensive and it would probably be healthier for you anyway.

Of course, this is just a stop-gap measure to avoid getting inconvenienced. The real solution is to move from security theater to true security and that takes policy changes.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#404

Post by marccuban »

This article has very little to do with Ramadan...Muslims don't fly more often during Ramadan than the rest of the year, do they? 9/11 didn't happen during Ramadan.

Take a look at this objectively.

A brown guy, traveling alone, tested positive for explosive residue while going through a TSA checkpoint. After some brief questioning, they determined that there was a 99% chance that he wasn't a terrorist.

How stupid would we as Americans have felt had we allowed someone to fly on the same day as having a 1% chance that he was a terrorist?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#405

Post by protomyth »

ranman wrote: post #201

My plan: 1. Dress in ethnically ambiguous clothing. 2. Coat myself in insecticide before heading to the airport. 3. Look shifty. 4. Refuse the millimeter wave machine. 5. Get Detained. 6. Take off ethnically ambiguous clothes. 7. Scream: "I'm a white male... what now bitches!"

If you're going to go through that much trouble, the Colorado School of Mines does a high-speed photography workshop every so often. You are photographing explosives of various types. I would imagine clothes worn during the workshop would be very interesting to airport scanners with a bonus of learning about high-speed photography.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#406

Post by mech4bg »

ryan-c wrote: post #399
corresation wrote: post #72

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…

I flew out of SFO last week and set off the explosive detector after opting out. My experience was rather different. The TSA agents took my backpack and made a cursory hand-search, doing explosive swab tests on my electronics. After failing to find a source, they took me to the booth to do a more through check. They didn't ask me any questions at all about myself or why I might have set the system off other than the…

I mentioned this in another comment, but I've set off the explosives detector before and had a very similar experience as the original link (taken to a side room, questioned, etc). This is as a white male, although it was in Australia.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#407

Post by AUmrysh »

steven777400 wrote: post #137
corresation wrote: post #72

It is a terrible ordeal, but for all of the other factors brought up the critical factor is that he set off an explosion detector (and clearly it doesn't get false positives often given the response they showed). Everything else (about Ramadan, being Hindi, the color of one's skin, etc) may be nothing more than decorations, and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in…

My bags have set off the explosives detector before, twice. (In both cases, due a heart medication that apparently triggers false positives). I was not taken into a back room or interrogated for hours. They searched me and my bags in more detail, asked some questions, and concluded it must have been a false positive. The experience took about 15 minutes each time. This was a few years back, but I don't recall if it w…

One time I brought peanut butter in my luggage. It looks like plastic explosive on the scanner so they have to open it and test it. Our teacher actually advocated that we bring it and those 36 packs of AA batteries because they look like plastic explosives and bullets, respectively. He really liked to mess with the TSA.

This was post 9-11, I don't know how we didn't all get arrested.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#408

Post by greedo »

anigbrowl wrote: post #334
mindcrime wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the pertinent detail is the fact the man set of explosive detectors. I'd argue that the pertinent detail is that he wasn't actually carrying any explosives. The other details, far from suggesting oppressive state apparatus, suggested an assortment of rent-a-cops and airline staff that really weren't particularly well-prepared for the guy that couldn't account for the explosives and flagged other profili…

And because he turned out not to be carrying any explosives, he was let go. As above, what would you do if someone set off an explosives detector? Investigations should certainly be conducted politely and respectfully, but at the same time they need to be persistent enough to deal with the attempts of guilty parties to conceal the truth.

Do you think the authorities behaved in a polite and respectful manner? I don't actually care if they do, I don't think that's a requirement; what I do care about is that they follow the law first, then use common sense. Detaining him for more than 30 minutes is very close to actionable in a sane legal world. Just because the TSA, FBI, and the local PD are full of bungling, ignorant idiots doesn't make what happened to the author less of a crappy thing.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#409

Post by 67726e »

JshWright wrote: post #293
67726e wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He never said they manually triggered an alarm. He said they could very well be lying that a detector was ever used let alone registered explosives.

That would be extremely gutsy on the part of the TSA employee... I go through the pat-down dance at least once a month, and that test is always done while I'm standing there, and the pass/fail reports are quite obvious (big green/red boxes with text).

Is that dependent on the airport? I've flown as recently as two months ago, and I went through four pat-downs over the course of the trip. I never saw any green/red indicator when they tested the pat-down gloves.

Regardles, I wouldn't exactly put it past the TSA to make up a positive hit. It's not like we haven't ever had a police officer claim someone committed a traffic violation on someone based on appearance and ultimately find drugs or some other criminal behavior.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#410

Post by scotty79 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #246
Robin_Message wrote: post #87

It really seems like "Flying While Brown" is this century's "Driving While Black". These and similar stories are shocking and demeaning all involved. Since the OP is here, and it wasn't totally clear in the story, I'm just wondering: if and when did you point out you were a Hindu not a Muslim†, and whether doing so and possibly additionally pointing out the historical enmity between those two groups might have helped…

> Since the OP is here, and it wasn't totally clear in the story, I'm just wondering: if and when did you point out you were a Hindu not a Muslim†, and whether doing so and possibly additionally pointing out the historical enmity between those two groups might have helped or hindered. A few of the officers did noticeably relax their body posture when I told them I was Hindu (just as the man from Homeland Security rel…

I wonder how it would play out if you were an atheist. Would they assume that you are actually a Muslim denying his faith to get through?
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