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DeepSeek v4

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Re: DeepSeek v4

#401

Post by kiba »

Ladioss wrote: post #376
sigmoid10 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still not sure how I feel about China of all places to control the only alternative AI stack, but I guess it's better than leaving everything to the US alone. If China ever feels emboldened enough to go for Taiwan and the US descends into complete chaos, the rest of the world running on AI will be at the mercy of authoritarian regimes. At the very least you can be sure noone is in this for the good of the people anym…

I always find it an illuminating experience about the power of mass propaganda every time I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China, despite starting a new war somewhere around the globe either for petrol or on behalf of Israel every six months.

Just because America is doing bad things doesn't mean China is good, or vice versa.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#402

Post by FuckButtons »

try-working wrote: post #274
wraptile wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Internet comments say that open sourcing is a national strategy, a loss maker subsidized by the government. On the contrary, it is a commercial strategy and the best strategy available in this industry. This sounds whole lot like potatoh potahto. I think the former argument is very much the correct one: China can undercut everyone and win, even at a loss. Happened with solar panels, steel, evs, sea food - it's a we…

It is not only that Chinese labs can undercut on price. It is that they must. They must give away their models for free by open sourcing them, and they must even give away free inference services for people to try them. That is the point of the post.

There is not ‘must’ here, they did not ‘have’ to undercut every other strategically and technologically important industry the rest of the world has, but they did as a point of national policy.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#403

Post by Cthulhu_ »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #332
chvid wrote: post #322

The incredible arrogance and hybris of the American initiated tech war - it is just a beautiful thing to see it slowly fall apart. The US-China contest aside - it is in the application layer llms will show their value. There the field, with llm commoditization and no clear monopolies, is wide open. There was a point in time where it looked like llms would the domain of a single well guarded monopoly - that would have…

Still not sure how I feel about China of all places to control the only alternative AI stack, but I guess it's better than leaving everything to the US alone. If China ever feels emboldened enough to go for Taiwan and the US descends into complete chaos, the rest of the world running on AI will be at the mercy of authoritarian regimes. At the very least you can be sure noone is in this for the good of the people anym…

Moral stances aside, I'd argue it's healthy that the US gets competition from abroad. I appreciate the boost that the world is getting from China - infrastructure and construction projects are a huge benefit to economies. Their focus on green energy has caused a huge influx of affordable solar panels, home batteries, EVs, etcetera, helping reduce the dependency on fossil fuels - while the US and especially the other big money spenders in the middle east would rather the world remain fully dependent on them. But for the past years Europe and now Asia are feeling the pain from being overly reliant on that.

China's policies and government aren't morally defensible and I do fear that they will become more aggressive in spreading their influence and policies onto other countries, but from an economic standpoint what they're doing is super effective. While the previous world power (the US) is stuck in infighting and going through cycles of fixing/undoing the previous administration's damages, instead of planning ahead.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#404

Post by rhubarbtree »

OhioMan2943 wrote: post #213
elefanten wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not remotely hypothetical you’d have to be living under a rock to believe that. And the fusion with a one-party state government that doesn’t tolerate huge swathes of thoughtspace being freely discussed is completely streamlined, not mediated by any guardrails or accountability. This “no harm to me” meme about a foreign totalitarian government (with plenty of incentive to run influence ops on foreigners) hooveri…

And you're saying Americans aren't banned from criticising their elites?

Donald trump is a terrible president and looks like Winnie the Pooh. Keir Starmer is useless and a liar.

Feel free to go post similar on Chinese social media about their leaders.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#405

Post by FuckButtons »

harladsinsteden wrote: post #364
sidcool wrote: post #45

Truly open source coming from China. This is heartwarming. I know if the potential ulterior motives.

> I know if the potential ulterior motives. And you think the US tech giants don't have any ulterior motives?!

I think their motives are pretty transparent, as are china’s, as ever, you have to pick the lesser of two evils.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#406

Post by aurareturn »

alpineman wrote: post #383
sho wrote: post #281

So, this is the version that's able to serve inference from Huawei chips, although it was still trained on nVidia. So unless I'm very much mistaken this is the biggest and best model yet served on (sort of) readily-available chinese-native tech. Performance and stability will be interesting to see; openrouter currently saying about 1.12s and 30tps, which isn't wonderful but it's day one after all. For reference, the…

Can't see how NVIDA justifies its valuation/forward P/E ratio with these developments and on-device also becoming viable for 98% of people's needs when it comes to AI

On-device is incredibly far away from being viable. A $20 ChatGPT subscription beats the hell out of the 8B model that a $1,000 computer can run.

Nvidia's forward PE ratio is only 20 for 2026. That's much lower than companies like Walmart and Costco. It's also growing nearly 100% YoY and has a $1 trillion backlog.

I think Nvidia is cheap.

Re: DeepSeek v4

#407

Post by jorvi »

koe123 wrote: post #355
jurgenburgen wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if we’re ahead of the curve but that tired feeling has started turning into hate here in the EU. I guess being threatened with invasion does that to you. The next decade is going to look very different with America Alone.

I grew up in the states when I was younger, always feeling some closeness to Americans even after I moved back to Europe. With all that goes on it has changed. Recently I sat on a plane near some Americans discussing their holidays here, and I noticed I felt contempt. Sitting their with insane privilege as their government torches the world. Individuals remain individuals, and one really ought not to be prejudice. Ho…

> In France cars are torched if the pension age is raised.

This is not something to be proud of. You guys are giving yourself loaned freebies, retiring 5+ (!) years earlier than countries like BeNeLux and Germany, and are pretty much expecting the EU to eventually pick up the pieces which will drag us all down.

Edit: always lovely when HN downvotes truths :)

Re: DeepSeek v4

#408

Post by anonymousDan »

renticulous wrote: post #205
gbnwl wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't express this well but my interest isn't "who is in the top spot", and is more _why and _how various labs get the results they do. This is also magnified by the fact that I'm not only interested in hosted providers of inference but local models as well. What's your take on the best model to run for coding on 24GB of VRAM locally after the last few weeks of releases? Which harness do you prefer? What quants do…

Follow the AI newsletters. They bundle the news along with their Op-Ed and summarize it better.

Can you suggest some good ones?

Re: DeepSeek v4

#409

Post by yorwba »

gbnwl wrote: post #102
wordpad wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The players barely ever change. People don't have problems following sports, you shouldn't struggle so much with this once you accept top spot changes.

I didn't express this well but my interest isn't "who is in the top spot", and is more _why and _how various labs get the results they do. This is also magnified by the fact that I'm not only interested in hosted providers of inference but local models as well. What's your take on the best model to run for coding on 24GB of VRAM locally after the last few weeks of releases? Which harness do you prefer? What quants do…

The technical report discussing the why and how is here: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main...

Re: DeepSeek v4

#410

Post by junnan »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #374
ifwinterco wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit I'm here for it to be honest, I'm tired of America with everything that's going on. China is not perfect but a bit of competition is healthy and needed

As a different Brit I do not accept such moral relativism. China’s governments actions are on a completely different level - for example: “”” Since 2014, the government of the People's Republic of China has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslim minorities in Xinjiang which has often been characterized as persecution or as genocide. “”” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

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