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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#401

Post by croes »

giantg2 wrote: post #310
htx80nerd wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure." In my own experience, when they took down the red light cameras in my area now people are not afraid to run red lights ~2 to ~3 seconds after it's red. See this kind of thing on a regular basis. Every now and then there's a serious accident.

The objective evidence indicates that accidents tend to go up after red light cameras go up, generally because the operators lower the yellow light time to increase fees.

Maybe people should brake on yellow lights.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#402

Post by _carbyau_ »

gus_massa wrote: post #300
sowbug wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

As the great patio11 said: > Raise the prices. Then raise the prices. Then when you're done with that, raise the prices.

Sure. Do it as an increasing-upon-recurrence, two part fee though.

1st offence = base fee

2nd offence = base fee + minimal % of wealth fee

3rd offence = base fee + higher % of wealth fee

offences thereafter = goto 3rd offence until some breaking point condition like gaol/jail.

Otherwise the rich will happily pay to do whatever the hell they want.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#403

Post by wewtyflakes »

cromka wrote: post #46
0x3f wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the right to question, but I don't have to testify to anything, that's what the fifth ammendment is for. As usual, Europe doesn't care about internal consistency when it comes to rights. They just legislate (or rule) whatever 'works' for the current definition of 'works'. > If someone shot a person with your gun, you gonna say it wasn't you and expect them not to question you further? Not very no-brainer, i…

> As usual, Europe doesn't care about internal consistency when it comes to rights. Sure. And you advocate that in exchange in US you get havoc on the roads because anyone can say "it wasn't me speeding 50 miles over the limit, bite me"? Is that the freedom you want ?

Hard yes; I do absolutely do not want to live in a society that is held together with cameras instead of people. By all means please enforce the law, but it should be done by people in a court, not by some auto-citation by mail.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#404

Post by db48x »

chupchap wrote: post #321
db48x wrote: post #11

Steve Lehto has an analysis of the opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ One interesting point is that the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record. This means that habitual bad drivers can get away with the same infractions over and over again as long as they pay the fines quickly. This bypasses the State’s points system that w…

In Australia you will get a fine and demerit points for speeding or for running through a red light. The points don't go away even if you pay the fine. If you go through a year without infractions, one point will be taken off. I think that's a fair system. More details here [ https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerit... ] and here [ https://www.primelawyers.com.au/traffic-law/speeding-offence... ]…

Right, many other countries let you point the finger at someone else. The problem is that in the US the government is not legally allowed to even issue a ticket unless they can prove that the person they are prosecuting is the guilty party. Merely being the owner of the car is not enough.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#405

Post by cucumber3732842 »

advisedwang wrote: post #313
fusslo wrote: post #198

After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure. Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered…

A speeding ticket is not a criminal charge. Criminal procedure and the rights for criminal defendants don't apply. The court says that criminal rules should apply because points are at stake, while civil penalties are usually restricted to fines, but I don't buy that argument. We have plenty of non-money civil remedies. Code enforcement departments can require changes to property. Family courts can make all kinds of…

>but I don't buy that argument. We have plenty of non-money civil remedies. Code enforcement departments can require changes to property. Family courts can make all kinds of requirements. It's not outside of constitutional bounds for a traffic rule to result in forfeiting a license without criminal proceedings.

All of which are an affront to people's rights.

The fact that we use a "special word" (civil) for the category of laws where we won't throw you straight in prison if you don't comply, we'll add the extra step of waiting for noncompliance and then charging someone with contempt doesn't fundamentally alter the relationship between the enforcers and the people, so why should the people have to put up with their rights being ignored in those cases?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#406

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

db48x wrote: post #11

Steve Lehto has an analysis of the opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ One interesting point is that the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record. This means that habitual bad drivers can get away with the same infractions over and over again as long as they pay the fines quickly. This bypasses the State’s points system that w…

> the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record

Weird thing to point out, as in Florida, if you get any traffic citation, you just hire The Ticket Clinic for ~$80. If they don't get your ticket expunged or points eliminated, you get your money back. They don't lose often. You can keep racking up tickets, but not get any points, as long as you've got $80.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#407

Post by mulmen »

Larrikin wrote: post #330
sejje wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully other states don't follow this pattern; I don't think the government should be installing surveillance arrays, even if it's "for the children" or public safety. Trading a little liberty for a little safety and all that.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.

I’m not sure if it was COVID or the social movements around the same time like defund the police. Here in Seattle when defunding the police was suggested the police department threatened to close the precinct in a large residential area. Basically they attempted to extort the voters. I think the police have realized that crime is good for them because the more of it voters see the more they think police are needed.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#408

Post by db48x »

b112 wrote: post #106
burkaman wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person is not articulating it well but I think they are complaining that the person identified as the driver is random. Presumably the camera can impartially identify a car running a light, but not necessarily who is driving. "I've been ticketed here twice, and it's ridiculous because they - it's just not fair. The person that - [let me start over] - the determination when you ran the light [of who is responsibl…

Everywhere I've been, the owner of the car gets the ticket, and it's up to them to figure out if they were driving, or if not them, collect from whomever they loaned the car to. No camera I've ever seen tries to figure out who the driver is. The logic is, it's your car, you're responsible for loaning it/owning it, so you get the fine. Don't like that? Don't loan your car out. The trade off is no points are deducted f…

> … the owner of the car gets the ticket, and it's up to them to figure out if they were driving, …

That's exactly what makes it unconstitutional here in the US. The Constitution specifically requires that they have evidence of who committed the crime _before_ charging someone with it. If you do it the other way around then you are making an assumption about who is guilty in advance of the evidence.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#409

Post by sowbug »

jaredklewis wrote: post #317
sowbug wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I get your point, but I doubt the fine could have been ethically higher. Domino's drivers killed dozens of people in speed-related accidents before they ended their 30-minute guarantee.

I don't think our society is ready for the combination of automatic enforcement and truly punitive penalties. We readily demonize the accused; just having your mugshot taken can end your employability. Yet many of us break laws daily -- speeding, jaywalking, watering the lawn during the day, even plugging in a microwave oven without a building permit in some jurisdictions -- and society still works because we don't expect much enforcement. We are heading toward a future where everyone will have marks on their permanent record, but today our society tut-tuts, or much worse, at anyone who does.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#410

Post by digitalPhonix »

giantg2 wrote: post #310
htx80nerd wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure." In my own experience, when they took down the red light cameras in my area now people are not afraid to run red lights ~2 to ~3 seconds after it's red. See this kind of thing on a regular basis. Every now and then there's a serious accident.

The objective evidence indicates that accidents tend to go up after red light cameras go up, generally because the operators lower the yellow light time to increase fees.

> generally because the operators lower the yellow light time to increase fees

I'm skeptical of this claim because the red light camera operators are usually contracted by municipalities. They don't have any direct control over the light cycles.

(Yes, obviously they can be in cahoots with the municipality, but I would be surprised if that was common and not the exception)

Do you have any evidence of this?

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