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Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

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Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#401

Post by LorenPechtel »

eptcyka wrote: post #236
Retric wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm personally able to walk a block or two further “A block or 2” each way at the start and destination is a significant difference (4-8 blocks) for most elderly people. Busses fill two different roles, as primary means of transportation and arguably more importantly as a backup means of transportation. They can serve a vital role for cities without the kind of investment it would take to make most typical HN reade…

Sure, lets have the minority of the population force us into design choices that are detrimental to the majority of bus users. When living in many a European city, I have chosen to walk instead of using a bus route due to the frequent stops making the bus trip a lot more expensive and marginally quicker. I have also lived in places where the eldery get a separate service, tailored to them, if they need it. Works a lo…

How about a compromise:

Alternate buses stop on the one-mile points only.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#402

Post by jacobgkau »

wussboy wrote: post #357
cyberax wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not unavoidable. Just ditch the buses and switch to cars, soon to be self-driving. Even the rush hour traffic is trivially solved by mild carpooling (small vans for 4-6 people).

Not Just Bikes makes a compelling argument that self driving cars are not the answer, and will almost certainly make things worse

Would you care to summarize their argument?

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#403

Post by f154hfds »

As a Pittsburgh resident who exclusively used bus for 5 years, this certainly seems like a reasonable take. In Oakland and Squirrel Hill the bus almost stops every single block - which always seemed kind of crazy. It's a _very_ common sight to see a beleaguered student miss their bus and successfully chase it down across multiple city blocks.

I will give the PRT (formerly Port Authority) a shout out though:

1. Bikes are quick and convenient to bring along

2. The numbering system is intuitive enough that you can almost guess how to get to new neighborhoods

3. Accessibility is clearly a priority, and they successfully serve many disabled people

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#405

Post by Karrot_Kream »

iamcalledrob wrote: post #359
Retric wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm personally able to walk a block or two further “A block or 2” each way at the start and destination is a significant difference (4-8 blocks) for most elderly people. Busses fill two different roles, as primary means of transportation and arguably more importantly as a backup means of transportation. They can serve a vital role for cities without the kind of investment it would take to make most typical HN reade…

I think this is a US-centric perspective. In the US, buses (and public transport in general), are thought of as social programmes. Anyone can use them, but they are really for people who can't drive or are too poor to own a car. The rider makeup then looks like that. The elderly and the poor, sadly. Services run at a huge loss and are dependent on massive and unpopular government subsidies. Quality of service is bad.…

It's a chicken and egg problem. The way to make buses competitive is to build bus only lanes. But to do that you end up removing a lane for drivers and dedicating enforcement resources to keeping bus lanes free of private vehicle traffic.

The usual pattern is when a bus only lane is proposed, drivers complain because they view the bus as a social program. Local legislators often take the drivers' side because they also view the bus as a social program. Even if you get the political capital to push a bus only lane, traffic enforcement will routinely ignore bus lane violations. LA is making waves on the latter problem by attaching cameras to buses which automatically write tickets for cars blocking the bus lane.

Ultimately it's a politics problem. If nobody wants to spend political capital on running a bus system as a transport program, it ends up as a social program.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#406

Post by righthand »

strken wrote: post #393
righthand wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is weird stigma in the US about buses but not trains (entirely). If you ride the bus you’re assumed poor or pathetic. I was in Colorado for work, they had me stay in Boulder and I would take the bus in the morning to Lafayette. A few people were on the bus in the morning when I got on and by the time we left Boulder city limits I had the bus to myself. Pretty fast, smooth, and cheap. I would then explain to my…

I took a Greyhound a couple of times when I was in the US, and the experience immediately showed me why Americans hate buses and coaches. My first transfer was in Sacramento. The entire bus got held up for over an hour because someone saw a man with a knife and security had to search absolutely everyone to try to find it. Half the stations were literally crumbling, as in the ceilings were falling down and covered in…

Just want to mention that the type of bus I'm referring to is the local municipal bus system in Colorado not Greyhound-type national bus lines. The national bus lines like Greyhound are indeed in disrepair, even in Nyc the bus stop is essentially the parking lot you leave from. It can be 100F or 0F and if you get a delay it's miserable. The main difference being the local municipal system is under utilized and the private corporation system is probably squeezing pennies for service.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#407

Post by bluGill »

rsynnott wrote: post #249
petcat wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emptying a school bus completely is a lot faster than a city bus stop where people are simultaneously trying to get off the bus and then the new people are also trying to get on the bus and jockey for position and for a seat before the bus can start moving again

So this used to happen on Dublin Bus, but a while back they solved it with an astonishing innovation... a second door! You get on at the front and off at the back. Given that this has been common elsewhere forever, it's unclear why it took them so long, but... (Bafflingly, they went through a transition period where ~all of the buses had two doors, but the driver rarely opened the back door. It wasn't really until co…

A second door is good. Make it even better by people getting on and off from either - those getting off should be first. Many systems work this way and it works great. Trains oten have even more doors, but for a but that often isn't possible.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#408

Post by bluGill »

petcat wrote: post #374
keeganpoppen wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's simply not how it works, and quite obviously so. the stop time is absolutely not linear in the number of people who board the bus. just think about all the time it takes to slow down, possibly make the whole bus kneel, and then sit up again. by your argument, there should be infinity bus stops, each of which only allowing one single person to load. like, what? surely we can think more critically than this...

So your counter argument is that we should actually only have two bus stops. One at the start of the route, and one at the end? surely we can think more critically than this...

No, we said less stops, not zero. you cannot take this to extreems and prove anything. Stops are a compromise and most of the US has too many.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#409

Post by femiagbabiaka »

wsatb wrote: post #354
LucasBrandt wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But lots of people _do_ already ride buses! There are already current riders, and potential riders who are making these marginal decisions. Occasional riders will decide between transport modes based on the trip - making marginal improvements (or regressions) would change the rate at which they choose to ride the bus. Even if every current person's mind has been completely made up based on past experience, there are…

I also live in Chicago and wouldn’t mind walking extra to another stop, but Chicago also has a massive traffic problem, particularly post pandemic. During rush hour, the bus is stop and go already. I’m really curious how this would pan out here, but it can’t be the only solution.

The traffic downtown is really nuts now that the bridges are all shut down.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#410

Post by bluGill »

lxgr wrote: post #97
bluGill wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nyc has a subway for longer trips. So shorter stops make sense as anyone with a longer trip should be on the subway. However most cities (in the world) are not dense enough to support almost redundant system and in those I believe the speed optimizationis correct. time is important to bus riders, speeding up the buses helps them. It also attracts others. Only a few are harmed more than helped - but they tend to compl…

> Nyc has a subway for longer trips. So shorter stops make sense as anyone with a longer trip should be on the subway. That’s not how bus routes in NYC are organized at all.

There are very busy bus routes organized like this. Though I will agree it is a minority. Where not organized like this the article applies.
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