Ultimately, I am going to quote one of my favorite writers [0] and say that I am not afraid of a life that ends. I don't want to be a brain in a jar. Or in a computer either. I enjoy experiencing physical sensations and interacting with the world in meatspace. And if I can't enjoy either, then just let me die. And I apply this to not just brain preservation, but any attempt to artificially prolong the quantity of my…
‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
401–410 of 499 posts
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#402Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that "you are different" does not mean a "different you" now exists, though. Change of this specific kind is already intrinsically integrated into your existence and identity.
Every moment of consciousness is different. It is a different you in that sense. What is the strand that keeps it the same ‘you’?
Change is ssential to human nature. A human exists--and the same human exists--fron fertilization to death. Fertilization is a change before which we can say "not smeej" and after which, "smeej." And death is also a change before which we can say "smeej" and after which, "not smeej." There will be vastly, vastly more cells at death than there were at fertilization (assuming smeej made it out of the womb and to an observable state), and the original fertilized cell will no longer exist, but there is no other point along the existence of smeej in which a change happens of such significance as to alter whether or not the same thing is present.
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#403Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. What wakes up is something slightly different due to biological processes. You are not tired, your mood is different, part of cells in your brain got replaced, memories become more stable and maybe linked to other similar memories, etc... This is way more pronounced for people waking up from a coma. Philosophers thought of this for a while, see https://philoso…
I draw the line in the sand and say that is different because sleep has been working "forever", while the quote in the parent comment describes a process that, not only does not exist and therefore work now, if it ever gets to work, we won't know if it's the same as the daily process that happens when we sleep. Otherwise I actually agree with your point ("every night another little death", as the Sonic Youth song say…
(1) https://brandondonnelly.com/this-river-i-step-in-is-not-the-...
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#404“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…
Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. What wakes up is something slightly different due to biological processes. You are not tired, your mood is different, part of cells in your brain got replaced, memories become more stable and maybe linked to other similar memories, etc... This is way more pronounced for people waking up from a coma. Philosophers thought of this for a while, see https://philoso…
This is provable - only one instance can wake up, whereas with the other method, it’s conceivable that two or more copies (instances?) could wake up.
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#405“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…
Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. What wakes up is something slightly different due to biological processes. You are not tired, your mood is different, part of cells in your brain got replaced, memories become more stable and maybe linked to other similar memories, etc... This is way more pronounced for people waking up from a coma. Philosophers thought of this for a while, see https://philoso…
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#406Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. What wakes up is something slightly different due to biological processes. You are not tired, your mood is different, part of cells in your brain got replaced, memories become more stable and maybe linked to other similar memories, etc... This is way more pronounced for people waking up from a coma. Philosophers thought of this for a while, see https://philoso…
Consciousness is probably an illusion anyway.
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#407Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for the response. I will return to what I meant by 'complex' in a minute. But nothing in your response undermines my point, which is that similarity between thought and object-of-thought is made impossible by materialism. It is true that "a chain of physical causality [runs] from the outside world to brain states via sense organs", and it is also true that brain states will be different based on the causality…
I can see from your response that there are a number of points that I need to clarify. Firstly, I am not at all surprised that you, personally, do not feel that your position has been undermined, and I don't suppose you ever will, but one of the themes of my response is that neither your intuition, nor that of like-minded people, is particularly persuasive; for that, you need something that would give a skeptic persu…
Anyway, to the main point. You wrote:
> The point in my penultimate paragraph is this: If we suppose that there is a causal flow from the real world to brain states via the sense organs, and adopt the premise that (changes in) mental states are caused by (changes in) brain states, then we have at least the outlines of an answer to your tacit initial question (what is it that makes a thought being one about reality?) that does not invoke or depend on any concept of likeness or similarity. In what I quoted above, you certainly seem to be saying that the only thing that could make a thought about reality is that it has a similarity (in some nebulous sense, at least) to reality, but here we have another way for a thought to be about reality that does not depend on likeness in any sense.
This clarifies our disagreement well. I will divide my response into two sections: 1. Why it is necessary for a thought to be like reality if a thought is to be about reality, 2. Why a causal chain cannot provide either likeness or a substitute for likeness.
1.
A thought can be right or wrong, but right-ness implies likeness to reality, while wrong-ness implies un-likeness. To illustrate: suppose Bob has a thought about a tree. Let's say it's "this oak tree is made of wood". Now suppose his friend Bill thinks "this oak tree is made of copper". I take it we can premise that Bob is right and Bill is wrong.
But for our premise to be true, their thoughts must be compared to the tree itself. There is no other way to judge their thoughts' right-ness or wrong-ness. For Bob's thought to be right, it must be like the tree (and the opposite for Bill's). Any conception of thought that lacks likeness makes this impossible. If we deny that both Bob's and Bill's thoughts are like the tree (which is necessary if we "do not invoke or depend on any concept of likeness or similarity"), neither Bob nor bill can be right. The concept of right-ness is predicated on that of like-ness. If, therefore, you drop the concept of like-ness, you lose the possibility of right-ness. And in this situation, all thought becomes meaningless, including the thoughts we're having right now about the nature of the mind.
Therefore we can conclude that likeness is necessary for correctness, and therefore for thought to be about reality.
Be aware that my claim is very limited. I am not, right now, making any claim as to what this likeness may be like. I am simply saying that likeness in some sense of the word is necessary for rational thought. Hence I disagree that may claim is 'nebulous'; rather, it's limited.
2.
A causal chain does not rescue your denial of likeness from its implications. As I stated above, causal chains happen everywhere in nature ("the tree causes a rustling sound"). A brain state is one result of a particular causal chain, but there is nothing special about it on that account. There is nothing that gives it the possibility of being rational, or correct. More specifically, a causal chain cannot in itself be 'right' or 'wrong'. It is possible that a causal chain will cause Bob to think a tree is made of wood, and cause Bill to think it's made of copper. This is not enough for Bob to be right and Bill wrong, because the chain has no connection to correct-ness. It can't give us reason for saying "Bob's thoughts are like reality, and Bill's are not". A causal chain is not right or wrong, or rational in any sense. That someone has been caused to think something doesn't mean he has a reason for thinking something. So a causal chain cannot provide a substitute for likeness if we want to rescue the concept of rational thought. Whether or not a brain state causes a mental state is irrelevant to this fact, contrary to what you claim.
Nor can a chain provide physical likeness itself. The materialist view of the mind closes off any other way in which likeness can be achieved, because (if it's consistent) it postulates that brain states, ultimately reducible to fundamental particles, are all that objectively exist. You claim "an understanding of causality may potentially lead us to being able to say... in what way thoughts are similar to reality", but you offer no details. I deny this is so -- causality can't rescue your position; it can't make there be some like-ness that is somehow both material and yet does not involve arrangements of atoms that are similar, which we've already ruled out. I'm happy to hear details if you think otherwise.
To summarize:
1. Rational thought requires (the possibility of) likeness 2. Materialism makes likeness impossible, because it reduces the mind to physical states, and a brain's physical state is not like the object of its thought [your arguments about causality do not gainsay this] 3. Therefore materialism makes rational thought impossible, and is therefore false.
So my claim way upthread, that 'there is an immaterial component to our thought, and therefore to our existence' must stand.
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#408“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…
Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#409Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’
#410> our societal acceptance of death comes from an inability to imagine anything otherwise CGP Grey captures this sentiment nicely in this animated essay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY "Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant" [2018-04-24]
1. It starts with the humans being deathless, and then death showing up. This is not how things are, all life we know of since the very beginning dies. It may well be a "feature" of life in that death is necessary, or at least useful, for life to adapt and grow - unlike the dragon, which showed up after life was already doing fine.
2. It very conveniently and explicitly frames death as an evil black dragon, anthropomorphizing it and pulling it out of the mechanical process that it is into a morally evil villain.
3. The difficulty and novelty of the discoveries we must make and engineering problems we must solve to beat death are several magnitudes smaller in the fable than in reality.
It seemed very pandering, and sets up death (and those who propose accepting its inevitability) as a straw man and those who want to beat it as a steel man. I would have been more sympathetic if the black dragon were some illness like cancer, but it seems to be an allegory for death itself. I'm not against research to improve health and slow aging, but I also think that there are much more important and realistic problems to solve than defeating aging.