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‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

theguardian.com

331–340 of 499 posts

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you just found out that this is actually happening. Every night you die and are replaced with a perfect copy of yourself. Would you do anything differently?

I would probably get a concentrated dose of existential dread knowing that by EOD I would cease to exist. Usually I'm able to delay that dread with the silly reasoning that I still have many years left before I die, but I wouldn't have that mind hack if I knew I had no time left.

I doubt it. You’d maybe freak out about it for a week but eventually you’re going to come to terms with the fact that this weird setup has absolutely no effect on your actual experience.

Same for other contrived things like dying and getting revived every day, getting frozen and unfrozen every day, taking a teleport dematerializer every day for your commute, having a portion of your brain and organs randomly get swapped out ship of Theseus style, etc.

At some point you would just come to terms with the fact that your existence is really just that of being a mind with a past and present. The future doesn’t really matter.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't copy a person anyway. We're going to find out that it requires an order of events - order of experiences - aspect that can't be recreated to get the actual person. Everything else will end up being a weak simulation (even if it gets a bit closer over time with improvements in simulating).

In theory if you had an atomic replicator you should be able to make a copy of a person. I'm not saying it will ever be practically possible. But I don't see any fundamental laws of nature that make it impossible .

Whats the theoretical route around the no cloning theorem?

pop science communicators tend to introduce the no cloning theorem in the context of making a copy of a person being impossible, but they could be applying it wrong.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#333
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how the video game Soma showed it. If you fork a brain you kind of have a 50% chance of it continuing into the copy, and 50% chance of you being "left behind". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x790AjID0FA

I get the point, but I think the most self-consistent answer is that your conscious experience has a 100% chance of staying in the original body. (And similarly for destroy-and-remake teleporters.)

Indeed, the coin toss explanation "Catharine" uses on the Simon copies is merely a manipulation to ensure he continues following her instructions so that the ARK is launched, obscured to the player by the necessary mechanic of always controlling the surviving Simon copy. The only "real" Simon died in Toronto.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#334
post #289
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To believe that the loss of a limb is so severe that death is preferable is absurd and insensitive. No. Denigrating someone expressing their personal opinion seems absurd. Since the commenter did not impose their opinions on other people you had to put those words in their mouth to call them insensitive. I prefer to die with autonomy and dignity as well, meaning I would like to pull my own plug. That other people m…

If someone else is free to decide that they'd rather die than lose an eye, or rather die than have to experience a few months of chemotherapy in order to be cancer-free, then I am also free to decide that those views are absurd and extreme, and reflect a deep misunderstanding of medical outcomes. > Denigrating someone expressing their personal opinion seems absurd. There's a difference between saying someone is fooli…

> then I am also free to decide that those views are absurd and extreme, and reflect a deep misunderstanding of medical outcomes.

I don't agree. You can decide that another person's expressed opinions don't align with yours, according to what you believe and think you understand about medical outcomes. The original comment didn't mention medical outcomes so I hesitate to judge how much the commenter knows about that. And I hesitate to call someone's personal views absurd. They have opinions I may or may not share. I can't make a rational argument to prove them wrong.

A person's beliefs can't "be" foolish or even wrong. Belief by definition does not come from an objective and rational evaluation of facts and probabilities. I can say I hold different beliefs, but no more.

We most often encounter this kind of argument around religion. Someone can sincerely hold religious beliefs that don't submit to rational and objective argument. We can have different beliefs but we can't prove someone else's beliefs wrong. To call a belief that you can't argue against with reason "foolish" or wrong equals calling the person holding the belief foolish and wrong. You can show that chemo can work and people with cancer can recover. You can't say how any individual should feel about that, or how they should choose to deal with a cancer diagnosis. The original comment didn't make any statement about whether chemo works or not, or whether some people can thrive with dignity after losing a limb. Rather the original comment expressed one person's belief about how they feel about those possibilities, for their own definitions of autonomy, dignity, and quality of life.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#335

“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…

Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. What wakes up is something slightly different due to biological processes. You are not tired, your mood is different, part of cells in your brain got replaced, memories become more stable and maybe linked to other similar memories, etc... This is way more pronounced for people waking up from a coma. Philosophers thought of this for a while, see https://philoso…

> Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. So, each morning is a copy of you wakes up

I think it doesn't "shut down", maybe fades away to a different, low-power mode. When you go to sleep and then wake up, here is still a continuity, because of the same underlying structures and processes from which the consciousness emerges. So it is like a 4D thing.

That continuity never really breaks (until death? which is like singularity) and I think this is what makes you "you". You can't copy/teleport it (kinda by definition), but you can extend/transform it.

Perhaps a "Ship of Theseus"-style approach would work — gradually replacing neurons one by one, or brain sections piece by piece. Alternatively, the brain could be extended with peripheral "devices" connected to it with bandwidth comparable to the interconnections within the brain itself, up to the point until the biological part becomes irrelevant. This is similar to how a portion of the living brain can be removed while still preserving consciousness — as neurosurgeons often demonstrate.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#336
post #242
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll need to be more clear in your last sentence. If you are cloned while you are sleeping, and both the original and the copy are moved into different rooms before you wake up, both of you think themself is you, and both of you think the other is not you. So, who is correct?

For me, the relationship is non-transitive. If you tell me this will happen tonight, I would right now call both "me". Both of them after the event would agree that I am them. Both of them would agree they are different people to each other, even if they say so in perfect stereo unison.

This entire thread just has me wanting to watch The Prestige one more time.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be engaging in difficult philosophical concepts and jumping over important steps (like rigorous definitions or showing why something “must be”). Yeah, sorry, I bashed that out too quickly. I'll try to slow down a bit, though I can't promise a full treatise :) For a thought to be about reality, there must be something about that thought that makes it about reality. How this might be the case is one thing…

There are a number of points where this thesis needs considerable work. Perhaps the first is that you appear to be ambivalent about what you have in mind by 'similarity'. When you first discuss it, you say "...there must in one way or another be similarity between thought and reality. Again, the 'how' may be extremely complex...", but then you go on to say "...where is the likeness between Bob's mind and the tree? It…

Thanks for the response.

I will return to what I meant by 'complex' in a minute. But nothing in your response undermines my point, which is that similarity between thought and object-of-thought is made impossible by materialism. It is true that "a chain of physical causality [runs] from the outside world to brain states via sense organs", and it is also true that brain states will be different based on the causality imparted by the world, as well as previous brain states, genetics, drugs, etc. But causality is not likeness. A brain-state caused by a tree is not of itself the same as a thought about a tree, any more than something else caused by a tree (like the sound of rustling in the wind) is the same as a thought about a tree. The latter needs likeness, not just causality.

> yet you dismiss the possibility of it being anything physical without offering the slightest justification.

The only way there can be likeness if materialism is true is physical similarity. The brain would have to be physically like a tree when Bob had the thought of a tree for there to be likeness. If we take materialism to mean that everything can be reduced to matter, then there cannot be any likeness that is not of matter. And this means a physical/material/atomic likeness is the only possibility. Yet we know there is no such likeness.

The concept of emergence doesn't overcome this problem. It must either produce a material likeness, which we know doesn't happen, or it must cause some kind of likeness which is real-but-immaterial, which is a problem for materialism.

The 'complexity' I referred to was in the context of how we know there is likeness between thought and reality vs that we know there is said likeness. We can know that the likeness exists without knowing how it exists, or being able to describe it in detail. The point was that no matter how complex the mind/brain/process may be, we know likeness must exist in one way or another, because without likeness there is no knowledge of reality. The complexity of the process, whatever the process is, is irrelevant to the need for likeness. That was my point in raising complexity; I should have been clearer. Complexity does not change the fact that the only likeness for materialism can be a physical likeness.

The CD is not a valid parallel. There is a chain of causality between the laser's interaction with the disc, and the sounds produced by vibrating speakers. A chain of causality is not a likeness, as I stated above. Further, a CD has no knowledge of its contents, so there is no need for likeness (physical or otherwise) between its imprint and the sounds it causes. We have knowledge of the world, so there is need for likeness.

Anyway, the nub of the matter is that you need to show how there can be likeness that is not physical likeness if materialism is true, or you need to show that likeness is not necessary for a thought to be about reality.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#339
post #62

Ultimately, I am going to quote one of my favorite writers [0] and say that I am not afraid of a life that ends. I don't want to be a brain in a jar. Or in a computer either. I enjoy experiencing physical sensations and interacting with the world in meatspace. And if I can't enjoy either, then just let me die. And I apply this to not just brain preservation, but any attempt to artificially prolong the quantity of my…

> I enjoy experiencing physical sensations and interacting with the world in meatspace. And if I can't enjoy either, then just let me die.

Who says a brain in a jar can't enjoy either of these? Who says that isn't, in fact, what you are enjoying right now?

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#340

I don't want to live more than 100 years and I don't want to come back from the dead either. Make way for the next generation and their wants.

Why 100? You can also make way for the next generation by living 80, or 60, or 40 years. Yet no one would be okay with that option. Funny thing is historically speaking 40 is a lot closer to the useful human lifespan than 100. So this strong belief of yours is really driven by advancements in society and healthcare over the last few decades. Why do you think that won't change drastically another few decades from now?
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