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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#401

Post by charcircuit »

drewcoo wrote: post #39
charcircuit wrote: post #10

"Team" does not appear once in the article. I find open plans to be superior as it makes the team go faster. People can unblock others, people can stop others from wasting time, people can immediately work together to think about a problem. And for times where you want to just pump out code you can put some earbuds / headphones on and use body language to signal that you are in deep focus.

> people can stop others from wasting time Workers policing other workers . . . the ideal office of the pre-COVID 21st century!

I am referring to stopping someone from investing time into an approach that will not work or is not a good idea. If someone spends a couple days working on something that just gets thrown away, that person wasted that time.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#402

Post by kridsdale1 »

politician wrote: post #384
JohnFen wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a scary depiction of the scene. I haven't experienced things that extreme, but close enough that I don't doubt you. It might even be a significant part of why software quality isn't where it should be these days.

Inside Facebooks' offices in Seattle circa 2019: "Overcrowded pig sty" is an accurate description. The smell was overpowering. Two pairs of bathrooms for an entire floor of developers packed shoulder to shoulder in an open plan hellscape.

I actually really loved the Dexter building. Yes it was all that, but I’m an extrovert and some part of my work day needs have been unmet for 4 years now.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#403

Post by notbeuller »

tzs wrote: post #222
nox100 wrote: post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

I worked at a place with a great office layout. A group of a few people working on the same or related things could all have private offices with doors, but it was also easy for people to call out questions to others or gather together to discuss ideas and see what others are up to. There would be a large room off of a hallway, divided into 8 offices, arranged like this: +---------+---------+ | | | | | | +-----+ -+-…

This is the best. Offices with doors, as a semaphore for availability, and a close by common area for collaboration.

If collaboration occurs spontaneously and your door isn’t closed, it’s easy to join in. If it turns out that someone is essential, turn it into an actual design meeting.

The best teams I’ve worked on had this arrangement and developed their own cadence - morning walks for cofeee, water cooler tv show commonalities.

Having the refuge of a known private space made group participation easier - I would seek out and benefit from the social technical in person interactions, as opposed to an open office plan where I would start out with determination of defending my personal mental space at all costs.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#404

Post by cauch »

tzs wrote: post #380
cauch wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you don't answer instantly, then you are stopping them in their flow. I've noticed this some times ago and now I cannot unsee it: this all discussion is too often about "what is best for me and my flow even if it ruins other people's flow" rather than discussing a proper solution.

I'm not sure you are talking about the same thing when you say "flow" that I think most of the other people are talking about when they say "flow". Flow as most are using it here, also known as being "in the zone", is when you achieve a deep state of focus on one particular task, and everything else seems to melt away. You reach maximal energy and enthusiasm for the work. It is where you reach peak productivity and c…

Hm, I think I have the same definition of flow.

For example, you can be "in the zone", and then suddenly realise you need answer X than only John can provide. In the office, you can look at John and he does not look busy, so you quickly ask. Sometimes, people don't even realise they are asking, they are still in the zone, checking if John is available is done by another part of the brain. After the answer, you continue, you are still "in the zone", you still have everything you need in your head, you are still juggling with different variables, they are still there.

Now, if you cannot ask directly, you have to send a message on Slack. And then what? Well, you cannot continue to work on the part you were working on. So you have to switch task, drop all of the variables you juggle with in your head, get out of the context you were in. Then John answers you on Slack 10 minutes later, you have to recollect everything in your mind.

So, yes, that's my point, not being able to ask a quick question will destroy your flow. The effects are the same as being distracted by a question when you are "in the zone". I don't think that asking someone about something is enough to get out of the zone, as in practice, developers "ask" their computer or internet things continuously. A simple "ls" or "ctrl-f" is as disturbing as asking the colleague sitting next to you.

Of course, it may depend on people, but I think it's just not a smart way to approach the problem as if everyone is always working exactly the same way you do.

I also think that some people will think stuffs will break them out of the zone when it does not always really do, just because they don't even notice the thing happened when it does not. It is a bit like those people who say "I always wake up when the cat pass next to my window" just because the 5 times they woke up, the cat was indeed passing next to their window, but the cat passed there 50 times without waking them up.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#405

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

mariusor wrote: post #339
em-bee wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when i hire someone, their job is to do whatever it takes that is in their capacity to move the project forward. if it takes a larger team, then getting new team members up to speed is part of that. and if that new team member is unfamiliar with the frameworks the team is using then training them on that is part of the job too.

Are you just telling me that you don't want to do your job properly as a hiring manager, which in my opinion would be to get the best people for the job, and that you prefer to pass the buck to your team to train them? I mean, sure, that's fine if this is stipulated from the start, but if you expect someone to solve leet code, do programming homework, and then when they get hired they have to also navigate your extra…

I care, but I care as a result of some projects moving forward being part of my annual goals and affecting my bonus. I agree with the spirit of the post though.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#406

Post by kridsdale1 »

manishsharan wrote: post #397
IKantRead wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

Not just startups. I was once hired as a contractor for a major bank in Toronto who were desperate to ship a product, which was way past its promised delivery date. The AVP got an idea to put all of us in a conference room huddled around a conference table , because obviously us lazy programmers were slacking off in our cubicles and the crappy almost daily changing requirements were not to blame. The entire team bega…

My experience with Canadian “business man, doing business” culture supports this.

Their lives are mostly modeling what business is supposed to look like. Nevermind it achieves nothing.

When I go home to downtown Vancouver I’m startled at damn good-looking everyone is in their suits and pomade-hair, in great offices exuding power and dignity. But their GDP per capita is crap compared to us schlubs in Seattle.

They must have learned performative-salaryman from the British.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#407

Post by yousif_123123 »

Just want to add that I only became (at least in my opinion) a good programmer by sitting next to a very good and passionate one that I was able to question from time to time and may have interrupted his work some days.

I also probably helped him brainstorm ideas with me and debugging, since he would just say what's on his mind while doing it, and I'd do the same, and sometimes this kind of ping pong debugging/brainstorming together yields way better results than solo work. I really like one time he was trying to see how to open the chrome debugger to debug the chrome debugger, and I just knew how to do it (same shortcut while focussed on open debugger) since I had done it by mistake :D

I am convinced that you get more in a collaborative environment having a few devs sitting next to each other in pairs/small groups that they enjoy being with than anything else. IMO with remote work you get hidden inefficiencies that the company can attempt to fix by just hiring more people in the team (and a culture of let's do less meeting, less face to face, more work) takes over and that 1+1=more than 2 environment I was very excited about is gone..

Can someone who is a fan of remote work tell me how a new grad excited about writing code could find a mentor and really up their game in the remote world with what's becoming "standard" way of doing meetings etc?

A counterargument to what I describe is how successful open source projects have always been remote with passionate people working on them

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#408

Post by qayxc »

goodcanadian wrote: post #27
qayxc wrote: post #22

The article oversimplifies things a little, IMHO. It's not the open floor plan office that's the main cause of the problem for DnD type work, nor are offices with doors a general solution. It's all about policy. A separate office with a door doesn't do you any good if every ten minutes someone drops by to knock on it. A private office also doesn't help if you're constantly bombarded with "urgent" messages from variou…

I always see noise cancelling headphones put forward as a solution to noisy office environments . . . I don't want to wear headphones. I don't want to be cut off in my own bubble. I want to be connected to my environment, and I want it to be a nice place to get my work done.

It's not the solution (plus they have an "aware"-mode that doesn't shut you off completely), it's a possible solution and a rather simple and cheap one at that.

Depending on the circumstances it isn't always possible to provide a work environment that everyone considers to be a "nice place to get work done". Some people don't mind background chatter, others can't concentrate if someone as much as coughs somewhere.

It's also a bit hard to not being being cut off in your own bubble as you put it, while simultaneously wanting to be connected to everyone else. Being in a separate, single desk office is no different from being in a bubble in that sense.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#409

Post by kridsdale1 »

closeparen wrote: post #353
sokoloff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.

It's not unusual if it takes 20 years for a software developer in the Bay Area to produce output equal in value to a 2-bedroom condo. Skimping on office space is not some kind of miserly bean-counting. Software development is just not all that valuable compared to Tier 1 urban real estate.

Real estate in the Bay Area is high valued because of it being a downstream stop on the trickle down of VC money being blasted everywhere by idiots in to a captive market.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#410

Post by esskay »

throw0101c wrote: post #119
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

> Open plan might work great for some types of work […] I'm curious to know: why types are, or people consider to be, good for open plan? Generally, office type jobs tends to be one where people need to use their brains to concentrate on something, and open plans tend to be able to create / not block distractions, they would be antithetical to being able to concentrate.

In the case of where I work, the marketing team seem to work better in groups, they oftent colaborate and (I hate that they do this) all crowd round one laptop to discuss ideas and thoughts - why they dont arrange a metting and do this in the appropriate room is anyones guess but its gone on for years, and is one of the main reasons open plan for developers failed at the place I work.

Thankfully our place is very much pro WFH but we do have an office with a 'quiet room' (basically a room with less desks) and a few pods for when you need to concentrate. The open plan areas are almost always 100% marketing folks though.

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