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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#401

Post by dudul »

Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

Cry me a river. My cats' physical costs $300. The vet is in the room for 20min. When I had to put down one of them (literally had to, there was no other options) it ended up being close to $1000.

Maybe don't charge insane amounts if having to put down a pet makes you suicidal.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#402

Post by dudul »

alwa wrote: post #148
vector_spaces wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it like that though? Like what are the economics of performing the procedure that it's possible for it to be free if the owner gives it up? Does someone different ultimately foot the bill?

In the case the article mentioned, yes. The vet found someone willing to adopt the puppy and foot the bill for the heroic intervention.

Who are these people who want a puppy but instead of getting one for $60 at a shelter just wait for the chance to pay $10k to take one from its owner?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#403

Post by dudul »

Zee38484 wrote: post #302

> showed male veterinarians are twice as likely... than the general population to die by suicide This may come as a bit cynical, but gender on its own has bigger correlation for suicide, than being veterinarian! 80% of suicide victims are males. That gives 3x higher rate over general population. It would be nice, if all people who cry here over veterinarians, could give some sympathy to men as well!

Reminds me of a recent HN "article" where a daughter was writing in length about how her dad's suicide destroyed her life.

"Desperate man commits suicide, daughter most affected."

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#404

Post by psychlops »

candybar wrote: post #400
psychlops wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are using the wrong statistics to make your point. The key point here is the there is a suicide difference between males and females. And vets are overwhelmingly male (90%). Women attempt suicide a lot more and those statistics you used are skewing your conclusion. Men (vets or not) use guns and are more successful.

You're wildly off the mark here. From the study quoted: > In 2017, over 60% of 110,531 US veterinarians were female, and in 2016, approximately 80% of students enrolled at US veterinary medical colleges were female. > The PMRs for suicide for all veterinarian decedents (2.1 and 3.5 for males and females, respectively), those in clinical positions (2.2 and 3.4 for males and females, respectively), and those in nonclin…

lol, have an upvote!

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#405

Post by junofan »

depletedgherkin wrote: post #256
qohen wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those unfamiliar with Dorothy Parker[0] and/or that punchline, here's the poem, Resumé, that it's from[1]: Resumé By Dorothy Parker Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren’t lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Parker [1] https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44835/resume-56d22415...

"Guns aren't lawful", after reading that line I thought she might be British, but it looks like she's American. Were gun laws stricter back then or something?

Yeah the Sullivan Act. Supreme Court struck it down last year.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#406

Post by iancmceachern »

oooyay wrote: post #116
candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I was lucky enough to own a house next to the vet clinic that ended up being my first dogs final veterinarian. Her sickness was very gradual; a boil grew on her neck and started aspirating blood, she became anemic, and somewhat lethargic. I supplemented her diet as the vet walked me through everything I could possibly do and was willing to afford. She gave me her number to text when weird things happened with the cav…

Totally. Putting Jimmy down was the worst day of my life.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#407

Post by serf »

I'm compassionate towards the problem, but I don't really understand the doctor analogy.

A doctor doesn't demand that a full battery of blood-tests is ran to determine whether or not I have FIV before he/she stitches together a small flesh wound or before he palpates my skin for tumors; a vet has no problem with creating artificial barriers to care by their own doing as long as it produces additional transaction profit -- now doctors and insurance and medical care might be backwards in the United States, but I haven't been refused medical treatment simply by saying "No, I don't think an HIV test is going to help you set my broken arm, so I won't do it, please set my broken limb.", but this is routine type of behavior around vets and animals, and I speak from years upon years of depressing personal and community service revolving around dogs and cats.

Frankly speaking, if my career enforced that kind of behavior and left me to my own devices to extort potential customers in a time of dire need with their dying pets as hostage/collateral, i'd probably edge towards suicide, too. I don't have a solution, but it feels like an unfair profession even as a spectator looking in, so their grief and anger doesn't come as a surprise to me -- the professionals are as much victims of the 'routine' as are the marks.

I think that MDs are insulated from this issue a bit more-so by their standardized (and pretty regulated) ethical and philosophical guarantees towards medical compassion and care; not knowing what vets are required to do within that regards, it seems lacking given the broad levels of quality of vet care you can find by calling a dozen local numbers -- maybe it helps that MD patients receive the 'hard decisions' usually from their insurance people.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#408

Post by chaostheory »

pas wrote: post #377
chaostheory wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And nearly half of the respondents were not receiving mental health care. Mental health care is rarely affordable or accessible even in countries with socialized health care systems. I guess that explains the rise of tele mental health sessions via apps, but who would trust them? Privacy is already a big issue, and it’s even more important when it comes to mental health care

are vets not well-paid? (vet services' cost has risen a lot more than human healthcare's, so there's clearly a strong demand, thus a big consumer group willing to pay them) are they consuming mental health services more/less compared to general population or compared to their zip code?

It ranges, but it tracks with developer pay.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#409

Post by maxwell »

herdrick wrote: post #376
maxwell wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, yeah, I read the book too, no bland autogenerated pap with zero citations necessary. It clouded my worldview and made me complacent and content with my privilege in the early 2010s. The other usual citation here is Hans Rosling. Think any of the 50 million slaves have had the chance to read the erudite works of Steven Pinker? You haven't addressed any of my points, haven't pointed to a single instance of inaccu…

Interesting. Sounds like the HN rules need a new clause, "No accusing other commenters of writing comments using LLMs".

Accuse? The commenter said they "asked ChatGPT to give us the Clifs [sic] Notes."

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#410

Post by hoorible »

Exuma wrote: post #207
heyoni wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

One of my favorite cats has a bad tumor and a 3 month expected life span. I found out a few days ago. I’m shattered and the thought of having to be in the room or not is just super depressing. I’ve never lost a pet before or even someone very close to me. I’m scared for how bad it’s going to hurt Part of me (most of me) wants to be there to feel the pain in the deepest way and not bitch out. To be there for the last…

Be there.

I was 14 when we had to put our first animal down; my mom, someone I guess you’d describe as hyper-emotional, was a wreck. A year later we had another, thankfully just of old age, but she “couldn’t bear it again” so I was in the vet by myself because I didn’t want my cat to be alone when she passed. It sure sucked doing it alone and feeling like I had to be the grownup, but I’ve never regretted my choice.

If you need to bring a friend to help get you through it, then do. But be there, no matter what. The closure that it offers is invaluable.

I’m so sorry. I hope you both find peace.

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