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Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

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Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#401

Post by dredmorbius »

rhaksw wrote: post #346
dredmorbius wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we do is try to educate them and loop them back in. I've done this on multiple occasions, e.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36191005 > As I commented above, HN operates through indirect and oblique means. Ultimately it is is a social site managed through culture . And the way that this culture is expressed and communicated is largely through various communications --- the site FAQ and guidelines, dang's…

> What we do is try to educate them and loop them back in. But that's selective education. You don't do it for every shadow moderated comment. The trend is still that shadow moderation more often disadvantages trustful users. Will you acknowledge that harm? Over 50% of Reddit users have a removed comment in their recent history that they likely were not told about. When shadow moderation is in play, abuse runs rampan…

What alternative(s) do you propose?

How do you think spammers and abusers will exploit those options?

Again: HN works in general, and the historical record strongly confirms this, especially as compared with alternative platforms, Reddit included, which seems to be suffering its own failure modes presently.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#402

Post by hk__2 »

networkchad wrote: post #206
dang wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, many sites are banned on HN. Others are penalized (see e.g. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ). None of this is secret, though we don't publish the lists themselves. Edit: about 67k sites are banned on HN. Here's a random selection of 10 of them: vodlockertv.com biggboss.org infoocode.com newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com moringajuice.wordpress.com surrogacymumbai.com max…

Why not publish the list? Users would know what not to submit in that case. Except maybe you’re worried about the list being heavily curated a certain way…

> Why not publish the list? Users would know what not to submit in that case. Except maybe you’re worried about the list being heavily curated a certain way…

The "certain way" is the experience of moderating HN. Publishing the list would help spammers know how to better circumvent it.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#403

Post by hk__2 »

xslowzone wrote: post #271
ender7 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can replicate this behavior fairly easily in a browser. 1. Open incognito window in Chrome 2. Visit https://t.co/4fs609qwWt -> 5s delay 3. Open a second tab in the same window -> no delay 4. Close window, start a new incognito session 5. Visit https://t.co/4fs609qwWt -> 5s delay returns

The reason there isn't a delay the second click is because the redirect is cached locally in your browser. Your humble anonymous tipster would appreciate if you do a little legwork.

> The reason there isn't a delay the second click is because the redirect is cached locally in your browser.

No, because it’s not an HTTP redirect. It’s an HTML page that redirects you using a meta tag, something that the browser doesn’t cache.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#404

Post by epistasis »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #357
epistasis wrote: post #251

This is what I have come to expect from every person that calls themselves a "free speech absolutist." What they actually believe is that they should be able to say whatever they want and do whatever they want, personally, without any consequences for themselves. There is no grander principle than "my ability to do what I want and exert power over others however I want, without critique or criticism." I really wish t…

I call myself a free speech absolutist (or advocate at least, absolutist is more of a slur). False compromises belong in the past. What X is doing isn't free speech at all and they have stated that advertisers will dictate what content will be seen, there is no commitment to freedom of speech at all. But at least I can hold them responsible for violating their own stated values. The former Twitter leadership just hid…

> The former Twitter leadership just hid content that didn't fit theirs or third parties sensitivities and told me they are doing me a favor.

The former Twitter leadership was very clear about what sort of content would be his. And is was based entirely on the type of content ahead of time. Critiquing this sort of content policy is like saying that newspapers should not be allowed to have clear standard for what is publishable in classified ads.

All claims of "I'm being oppressed" by Twitter policies have been absolutely ridiculous, and discrediting to supposed free speech advocate/absolutist positions.

Similarly discrediting is the silence on Musk's attacks on the free web and attempts at censorship of specific disprefeerred news outlets.

We all see what gets fought ago and what is not faught against, and the answer is clears the right to attack and intimidate groups with threatening behavior is defending, but actual censorship of reasonable discourse is tolerated.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#405

Post by ActivePattern »

XCSme wrote: post #394
kens wrote: post #15

I can confirm. NYT shows a five-second redirect delay: "wget https://t.co/4fs609qwWt ". It redirects to gov.uk immediately: "wget https://t.co/iigzas6QBx "

They both load instantly for me.

It's already been reverted.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#406

Post by thfuran »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #386
jquery wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you get mad at google for automatically detecting and removing spam from your email inbox? For a lot of people, probably the majority, speech by scoundrels falls somewhere in that realm... there is simply no debate to be had about the basic humanity of certain classes of people. Capitalistic companies respond to this demand. That said, I agree the government probably shouldn't be involved here for the most part (s…

We are not talking about spam if that wasn't a rhetorical question. Advertising not wanting any controversy attached to their product placement is no solution and isn't desirable. This isn't done in the name of users. That there are limited worker protections in countries is a different problem, but is certainly not inhibited by too much speech, quite the contrary it would worsen the situation further. Civil libertie…

>We are not talking about spam

Why not?

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#407

Post by altairprime »

dontupvoteme wrote: post #381
altairprime wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not going to work, because now that’s an API for spammers to bulk process against a domain list. The only available API must be human communication to the mod team, or the spammers will overcome it with automation.

That's trivial to figure out. It's quite possible the reason the list isn't public is because it would give away information about what thought is allowed and what thought isn't.

> That’s trivial to figure out.

Elaborate.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#408

Post by mdp2021 »

dang wrote: post #263
mdp2021 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understandable, but I think there should be some discriminating system for another class of sites, the "you can submit but not discuss" ones. For example, a recent submission (of mine): "Luis Buñuel: The Master of Film Surrealism" it had no discussion space because (I guess) it comes from fairobserver.com . Now, I understand that fairobserver.com may had been an hive of dubious publishing historically, but it makes l…

Oh I agree - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36924205 was a fine submission. Can you please email hn@ycombinator.com so I can send you a repost invite for it? That domain is a borderline case. Sometimes the leopard really changes its spots, i.e. a site goes from offtopic or spam to one that at least occasionally produces good-for-HN articles. In such cases we simply unban it. Other times, the general content is…

Incidentally: I just saw a new piece, on a publication that at least in its UK version (which the USA version partially embeds) offers, in spite of frequent expression of biased views, a few remarkable articles. (Some say, "at least they are on average excellently written".)

It was an article about Eileen O’Shaughnessy - George Orwell's wife (I suppose this could raise interest, possibly also yours).

I have seen in that text unneeded references to Orwell's most private matters - as if spying in Mr. Blair's rooms.

And this should tell us how hints ("Well, it was published there"), while valuable to have at least some tentative initial ranking, are unfortunately not useful for reliable discrimination.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#409

Post by networkchad »

hk__2 wrote: post #402
networkchad wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not publish the list? Users would know what not to submit in that case. Except maybe you’re worried about the list being heavily curated a certain way…

> Why not publish the list? Users would know what not to submit in that case. Except maybe you’re worried about the list being heavily curated a certain way… The "certain way" is the experience of moderating HN. Publishing the list would help spammers know how to better circumvent it.

[dead]

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#410

Post by singleshot_ »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #357
epistasis wrote: post #251

This is what I have come to expect from every person that calls themselves a "free speech absolutist." What they actually believe is that they should be able to say whatever they want and do whatever they want, personally, without any consequences for themselves. There is no grander principle than "my ability to do what I want and exert power over others however I want, without critique or criticism." I really wish t…

I call myself a free speech absolutist (or advocate at least, absolutist is more of a slur). False compromises belong in the past. What X is doing isn't free speech at all and they have stated that advertisers will dictate what content will be seen, there is no commitment to freedom of speech at all. But at least I can hold them responsible for violating their own stated values. The former Twitter leadership just hid…

When a company that provides a coherent speech product, their editorial decisions are made according to how they will affect the goal of user growth. The obvious result of a “free speech absolutist” social media coupled with the rules of network effects is one enormous, undifferentiated social network.

It probably goes without saying that this would be an extremely unpleasant place, but there would be nowhere else to go once the last platform won.

What we have today is a number of smaller social networks, each with a different strategy to shape the conversation. It may very well be true that the creators of a platform choose editorial methods and goals that resonate with them personally, but what’s important to the dynamic of the platforms and free speech is that until we are all on that one terrible platform, that methods used to moderate your speech are nothing more than a company’s efforts to differentiate their product from others.

Restricting speech is in the interest of product differentiation. This, of course, is in the interest of the owner of the product, but it is always also in the interest of the consumer who wants a rich speech market to choose from, and who loathes the idea of a global 4chan style megasite to the exclusion of all other social media. This is why failure to limit speech in the context of a coherent speech product is always counterproductive.

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