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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#401

Post by peterfirefly »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #252
mafribe wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Throughout the history of the US Is the US the world's only country? Throughout the history of the world , who counts as XYZ has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time. I recall when we stopped being Yugoslavian, and started shooting at each other, as Serbs or Croats. The Russian guy sitting next me married a Ukrainian woman a decade ago. Recently Russians and Ukrainians sta…

Of course not, but the context is a conference in the US.

And you got it wrong. The Irish were not considered non-white. The ethnic divisions were (and are) most definitely not just White vs PoC. It used to be extremely important whether a person was a Catholic or a Protestant, for example, all other kinds of Christianity being conveniently ignored.

I liked JeanHeyd's blog because he is a good writer (but a bit on the chatty side). I also love what he does for the C standardization process. His skin colour is completely irrelevant.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#402

Post by marcinzm »

pdimitar wrote: post #400
marcinzm wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on the power balance. Adults have power over children. The author does not have power over the people involved. Deescalating when you lack power is often little different from not saying anything at all. This is why most non-generational change to existing power structures involves large groups of very angry people. Same reason complaining about your Google Account getting locked on social media is more…

No power over anyone is required. Reasonable and well-grounded arguments seeking to resolve conflict will do.

That requires either both sides to be equal in power or both sides to be willing to stick to the process. From the blog the author believes neither is the case.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#403

Post by hnaccount_rng »

zozbot234 wrote: post #216
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is saying “be an actual professional and don’t bring a vocabulary pertaining to intimate discussions to the public sphere when what’s discussed is a technical conference.” It’s already barely acceptable in a purely American context. To me as a European, this is extremely off putting and culturally out of line which is a recurring problem with Rust.

It's a dog whistle. What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen, and he's noping out for that eminently understandable reason. But if he said that in no uncertain terms (as a European very well might in similar circumstances!) he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. Hence this we…

Why would a “this is what happened and it’s the reason I’m not longer going to be involved in the Rust project going further” possibly be able to violate a Code of Conduct? Sure if you start calling people an asshole or lash out. But that’s similarly uncalled for…

Everyone is free to nope out. And people noping out is something that Rust (the community) needs to take into account. _Because_ it depends on them. But as is.. I’m unsure if this kind of emotional involvement is even something Rust (the project) _should_ want

Re: Why I Left Rust

#404

Post by marcinzm »

lolinder wrote: post #376
marcinzm wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on the power balance. Adults have power over children. The author does not have power over the people involved. Deescalating when you lack power is often little different from not saying anything at all. This is why most non-generational change to existing power structures involves large groups of very angry people. Same reason complaining about your Google Account getting locked on social media is more…

You don't have to have power to deescalate. We're teaching our children to respond appropriately to conflict—in the situation above, either one of them can deescalate by approaching the conflict reasonably. He could have avoided it altogether by asking nicely for her pencil. She could deescalate by recognizing that he really wanted her pencil and making a trade that they both are happy with. It's hard for them to do…

>We're teaching our children to respond appropriately to conflict—in the situation above, either one of them can deescalate by approaching the conflict reasonably. He could have avoided it altogether by asking nicely for her pencil. She could deescalate by recognizing that he really wanted her pencil and making a trade that they both are happy with. It's hard for them to do because their escalatory actions feel more immediately effective at bringing "justice", but they don't work out in the long run.

Again you're using an example of two children who are equal in power dynamics. Now try having a child deescalate an angry adult. Most people would not find that a reasonable request.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#405

Post by jjtheblunt »

bob1029 wrote: post #352

All of this drama / culture war or whatever you want to call it is a big part of what turned me off to Rust in the first place. I come from .NET background and am open to the idea of a realistic C/C++ replacement. My experience with .NET and its "community" has left me with a really comfortable feeling with regard to my ability to do business, just "get shit done", etc. To be clear, there isn't really a community. I…

What's a LARP?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#406

Post by fatneckbeard »

lyu07282 wrote: post #149
indy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much less weight should be given to someone "feeling uncomfortable" Rust the language is pretty good but the community around it has become really off-putting. The thick veneer of empathy and compassion quickly devolves into "idiot compassion" and emotional blackmail. Even the linked post contains the following: "I left because when I felt JeanHeyd's pain and disappointment at being mistreated and betrayed, my heart…

I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…

Yeah I worry about this. There was no "C leadership", it was simple enough that dozens of people created their own compilers within a few years of C existing. this was back before the internet. they had companies sprouting up like Borland just making C compilers for personal home computers. C just ... spread. All these kids learning Arduino in school, they are learning C.

There basically is no other usable compiler than the official rust compiler. So it has this 'leadership' thing that ... C never really needed

Re: Why I Left Rust

#407

Post by marcellus23 »

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #347
redeeman wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is well in line with the woke culture, everything is about feelings, and not rational arguments. They need trigger warnings, and if things hurt some feefee's, its simply unacceptable regardless of factual matters. that is why it is so disruptive in a professional setting, and kills all real honest cooperation

This is an absurd post, these tirades against the boogeyman of “woke culture” are so tiresome. Engage with the content of the blog post instead of deferring to this tribal bullshit.

That _is_ the content of the post. It’s not like people are arguing about grammar or the webpage style. People are talking about the words the author used and the ideas the author communicated.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#408

Post by ericyd »

chillbill wrote: post #79

I haven't seen anyone bring this up, so I will. I read through the original blog post from JeanHeyd[1] and in no way do they mention anything related to being a person of color, why then does JT associate it with that? I have no idea about the inner workings of the rust leadership team and who they are even, but from the timeline described and from the original post, there's nothing the could be related to that. Jean…

> "a person of color" (as if white is not a color, but whatever)

You might want to look into the historical basis for this term before you make snarky comments about it. It comes across as dismissive. My understanding is the term "person of color" evolved from "colored" (which originally just meant black (in America at least)) and now encompasses non-white people.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#409

Post by fsociety »

lionkor wrote: post #36
bitwize wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, open source is just like this now. I think it's a confluence of factors: 1) Open source is more about interpersonal collaboration than it ever has been. The lone hacker throwing tarballs -- or patches -- over the fence is dead. Open source projects now more closely resemble "real world" software projects: a team of engineers using collaborative tools, working toward a defined shared vision with management and ove…

There is and always has been a problem parallel to this: People who are part of a group they believe to be fundamentally segregated and discriminated against are much more likely to let this influence their judgement. A promotion of someone else quickly becomes favoritism, and a demotion or reassignment (or rescheduling) quickly becomes discrimination, even if those decisions were made on a different basis. A lot of…

Unfortunately being in the position of, “I don’t see color” or “I don’t care about your sexuality” might work in an ideal world but leads to more inequality in the real world.

For example, LGBTQ are in a war with a government party who want to put laws in place which directly threaten them. Not giving a shit about them makes it easier for said government party to eradicate them from their country. Sounds hyperbolic but some folks are on a hell-bent ideological mission against non-straight/non-cis/non-conforming people.

So no, it is still easy to discriminate against non-white males in tech groups. It is also easy to discriminate against, but in less proportion, against white males in tech groups. Real life is messy.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#410

Post by owenmarshall »

julienfr112 wrote: post #124

It looks like JeanHeyd is unwittingly used as a weapon in a conflict internal to the Rust leadership. It look to me as an escalation of the conflict : - First, a power move to invite someone outside of the community that have a strong point of view on a technical subject. As any organisation, you have to make move to make your agenda move forward. - Second, an escalation with the uninvite. Not polite, but asserts the…

I’m glad someone else had this read.

I do not want to pass judgment on either side or the claims made, but simply note this feels awfully similar to the way I’ve seen people treated at big corporate jobs when rival senior leaders go to war.

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