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Why I Left Rust

jntrnr.com

211–220 of 880 posts

Re: Why I Left Rust

#211
Is there already a ChatGPT Plugin out to summarise blog posts?

tl/dr: "The key message in this text is a call for accountability following the decision to downgrade JeanHeyd Meneide from keynote speaker at RustConf due to disagreements with his blog post. The decision was perceived as disrespectful and cruel, lacking in appropriate organizational procedures. This has highlighted a larger systemic problem within the Rust organization and prompted the author's resignation. They call for a full investigation, a greater focus on accountability rather than diplomacy, protection of individuals from such unjust actions, and the implementation of safeguards to prevent similar incidents in the future."

Re: Why I Left Rust

#212
I see. The proposed keynote made it about identity politics. I am going to side with the Rust Board on this one.

To me this was a great and necessary decision.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#213
This is certainly strangely phrased. The version I got from another member was that the content of the talk was to be about a proposed feature that may not actually end up in Rust (in my view it likely would not), and having that be the keynote talk would imply to a lot of people that it would end up in Rust and put the language in an uncomfortable position where something other than the feature's merit would be pushing for its inclusion. Moving the talk away from being a centerpiece, in such a case, makes sense, and I have no idea whether this counts as poorly handled or not but saying it shouldn't have happened at all seems a bit naïve to me.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#214

I haven't seen anyone bring this up, so I will. I read through the original blog post from JeanHeyd[1] and in no way do they mention anything related to being a person of color, why then does JT associate it with that? I have no idea about the inner workings of the rust leadership team and who they are even, but from the timeline described and from the original post, there's nothing the could be related to that. Jean…

"White" is rather emphatically not like other ethnic or racial labels. Throughout the history of the US, who counts as "white" has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time. In the era of the founding fathers, the Irish, Spaniards, Italians, all considered not white. Then during various times, often driving by waves of immigration of some other ethnicity people were freaking out…

> Throughout the history of the US

Is the US the world's only country?

Throughout the history of the world, who counts as XYZ has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time.

I recall when we stopped being Yugoslavian, and started shooting at each other, as Serbs or Croats. The Russian guy sitting next me married a Ukrainian woman a decade ago. Recently Russians and Ukrainians started shooting at each other. There's a great deal to read on this topic if you're genuinely interested.

“The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.”

Re: Why I Left Rust

#215
This continual tech industry drama, doesn't matter if one is talking Rust, Go, Node, or pretty much anything, technology industry members will treat their personal situations and perspectives as litanies of outrageous violations of their integrity.

Fact of the matter: our entire industry is never taught how to professionally communicate, and these constant drama fests are the manifestation of immature communication skills, across the board, our entire industry.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you saying? ”Suck it up.“?

He is saying “be an actual professional and don’t bring a vocabulary pertaining to intimate discussions to the public sphere when what’s discussed is a technical conference.” It’s already barely acceptable in a purely American context. To me as a European, this is extremely off putting and culturally out of line which is a recurring problem with Rust.

It's a dog whistle. What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen, and he's noping out for that eminently understandable reason. But if he said that in no uncertain terms (as a European very well might in similar circumstances!) he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. Hence this weird talk about intimate "weeping" and "pain". Make no mistake, this is not some softy empath talk but quite the opposite!

Re: Why I Left Rust

#217
post #10

I've been to plenty of conferences over the years, and I never really knew who was a "keynote speaker" or "only" a "speaker". Does anyone pay attention to this? You give a talk. People show up. They clap at the end. Does it really matter what some title on some conference website is? The communication was perhaps a bit more confusing and hectic than it should have been, but does that really matter? Is that really a b…

At the very least I would expect a keynote to be more inspiring, interesting, groundbreaking and possibly a little less technical/routine. It would be a different speech with a different preparation. So there is that. Plus bragging rights on CV and what people think of you and how many people turn up, how big the hall is etc. I think I would be annoyed to be downgraded.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#218
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think that is what is going on here. So far, all I have heard anyone say is "Behavior occurred which should have been unacceptable regardless of who it happened to. By the way, the optics are particularly bad because of race issues."

Either it's a race issue or it's not. If it is, provide evidence of racism. Insinuating racism makes me believe your nothing more than a racist and miscreant yourself (you not being you you obviously)

This is a puerile take.

If you ignore the optics of the situation you are going to step in it big time, even if your intentions are completely honorable. You need to be aware of the optics of your behavior, because that's all outside observers see. Your intentions are not something other people have access to.

You going on the offensive like this on this particular point makes you look (see, optics again) either incredibly naïve or covering for some pretty bad behaviour.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#219
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How ironic that Rust should have the most problems arising as a result of shared ownership. Perhaps they should consider a model where the entity has a single logical owner and requests to change its state are made by passing messages to that owner…

I don't think its ironic. Its just that a shared ownership model is more complex than having a single person in charge, making decisions. And its a reasonably new idea - not many of us have the experience and skills we need to make it work. Inevitably, more mistakes happen. In many ways its sort of incredible and impressive how well rust functions. There's probably hundreds of people involved, from core compiler tool…

Still, how much simpler, more efficient, and less drama-filled would it be with fewer people, and particularly with a single person in charge? It's like the inefficiency of a prematurely distributed system full of microservices versus a monolith that runs just fine on a single modest machine.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#220
This looks to me like a shitty situation, handled badly, but... having read this thread backwards, starting with the HN comments, then JeanHeyd Meneide's own blog post about it, and finally the "Why I Left Rust" post being discussed here... I mean, shit happens? It's easy to fuck up when planning a big conference and sometimes you end up wasting the time of presenters, or (arguably worse) the audience, or (maybe the worst) sending the world the opposite of the message you intended, or some combination of those.

Or sometimes, yes, you end up exposing your organization as the cabal of racist authoritarian illegitimate corporate-sellout puppetmasters that it actually is.

But I mean... I don't see strong evidence of the latter, unless there is more to the backstory than I gleaned from the process above, which is:

1. No non-white person has ever given a keynote at RustConf (according to the linked "Why I Left Rust" post)

2. This one was going to be that.

3. But then the conference organizers canceled it, in a ham-fisted way.

4. But also, the topic was controversial, in the sense that at least some stakeholders may have felt "this kind of compile time reflection will definitely not be added to Rust in the foreseeable future"

So... it is absolutely understandable that the Meneide was highly irritated by the way it was handled, and ended up declining to present at all.

But did the Rust organization "disgrace" this expert in the field? Did Rust act as a "cruel, heartless entity"?

I will concede the late rejection (of the talk as a "keynote") was "unprofessional", but... was it "vindictive"? That implies the organization wanted revenge for something... what?

It's not clear to me after clicking and reading for almost an hour. But it seems to be consistent with the pattern of the various entities around Rust stepping on their own dicks. I'm reminded of the Rust Foundation taking out full-page newspaper ads like "IMPLEMENTING A CRYPTO PONZI SCHEME? DO IT FASTER IN RUST!" and then actual Rust core team people were like ":fuck-you-emoji: :barf-emoji:".

I would be perhaps relieved that they are apparently making a significant effort at reforming their governance (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/3392) were it not for the fact that one of the authors of that PR is the author of the post we're discussing here, who just quit the Rust project entirely. :grimace-of-regret-emjoi:

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