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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#401

Post by lettergram »

dbrueck wrote: post #243
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had: - online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked…

> Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :)

The red head jokes were endless.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#402

Post by The5thElephant »

meowkit wrote: post #324
mostly_lurks wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might want to reflect for a minute on why you thought "but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone?" was an appropriate response to a black person talking about their experience of racism. I recognize you believed yourself to be mitigating the effect of your statement by prefacing it with "Not disputing your bad experiences," but I think you'll find that the net effe…

And to counter your claim here - someone's "lived experience" is not a sufficient ballast for blindly accepting an anecdote. People's memories suck. And more often than not subjective experiences don't map onto reality, especially when negative or stressful emotions are involved. One negative experience on an IRC/forum can cloud a person's entire recollection simply on the basis of the Negativity Bias. https://en.wik…

The point isn't to figure out whether these communities were a net positive or negative. I wasn't a target of any of the racism, sexism, homophobia, etc on these forums and chat rooms but I sure saw a lot of it everywhere I participated at a level that was kind of ridiculous in some cases. It clearly had impact on the people it was targeting, the degree to which it "clouds a persons recollection" is entirely irrelevant.

Is your point that their recollection should be dismissed? That they were too sensitive? It's unclear what this response's intent is.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#404

Post by hnuser123456 »

Mezzie wrote: post #316
dbrueck wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had: - online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked…

I can't speak to not being white, but I can speak to being female and gay in those spaces. I'm a 3rd generation geek/techie/hacker and the hostility really ramped up when I hit puberty. 8 year old me was treated decently: I got a lot of shit for asking stupid questions and me + my intelligence was insulted regularly (since most people didn't know I was a child), but the rape threats and constant sexual comments start…

As a straight white dude, yeah there were a lot of nerd spaces with white dudes that imagined they were surrounded by other white dudes and some of them felt no need to be inclusive. But I wouldn't judge any profession too deeply solely by the behavior of teenagers who express interest in that profession. They're going to act like teenagers no matter which profession. Find a big enough young hacker space and you'll be able to find the more mature subgroups within.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#405

Post by pookha »

We need specifics...

My view of racism: A specific and targeted activity aimed at a race of individuals with the aim of removing their ability to compete in the free-market.

Examples: CIA backed rebels in South America sent (oddly) marked down\cheap product to Rick Ross and he proceeded to flood black neighborhoods with crack. The US then passed mandatory sentences during the war-on-drugs. Most of this affected black neighborhoods affected by Hubert Humphrey (Senator in the 60's) redlining.

Nothing AT ALL approaching wholesale racism was EVER part of the early (unplanned) IRC scene. If you were new to tech it was a harsh environment and you would get housed on. But there was not a gatekeeper to IRC that channeled blacks into substandard rooms. There was no coordinated effort by the early internet to target black people online with threats and harassment or blacklistings. There was just a lot of dudes talking shit. Calling them racist is a slap in the face to the tech industry that we have in 2023.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#406

Post by sp332 »

voxic11 wrote: post #200
backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

Well hiring under-qualified candidates purely for the sake of a quota (relating to a protected class) would be illegal in the United States. So its unlikely you will hear anyone explicitly saying that is what they intend to do. https://www.aclusocal.org/en/inclusion-targets-whats-legal

For government contractors:

"If women and minorities are not being employed at a rate to be expected given their availability in the relevant labor pool, the contractor's affirmative action program includes specific practical steps designed to address this underutilization."

"Where, pursuant to § 60-2.15, a contractor is required to establish a placement goal for a particular job group, the contractor must establish a percentage annual placement goal at least equal to the availability figure derived for women or minorities, as appropriate, for that job group."

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-41/subtitle-B/chapter-60/...

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#407

Post by John23832 »

slackfan wrote: post #398
John23832 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) So the opportunity to make many different people feel excluded is better? I'm not sure what you're getting at?

So you're arguing equality is bad, therefore some people need to be more equal than others?

I'm not.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#408

Post by micromacrofoot »

joemazerino wrote: post #83
micromacrofoot wrote: post #52

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I get this... but is the contrary worse? you've very possibly missed out on jobs at the expense of a less qualified white person. There's some evidence that even having a "black sounding name" results in resumes being looked over. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/job-appli... Inclusivity initiatives can be problematic, but p…

Applying real world hard from theoretical data is exactly why DIE should die. It is absolutely absurd to assume that data supporting racism (ie: black people can't get jobs because they are somehow handicapped) is more applicable than data showing equality of opportunity. Play this logic game: besides racism, why do you think these resumes are passed over?

It's not really a "logic game"... that seems like a dismissive way to approach this conversation and makes me feel like you may not be willing to entertain any ideas through the course of a discussion.

There have been multiple experiments run using resumes with identical experience but different names, and it seems that "black sounding" names are consistently called back less often, in some cases 50% less.

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/employers-replies-racial-n...

This makes me feel like some kind of hard requirement like a quota might actually be corrective given that there are measurable biases in who gets called back for an interview?

Or maybe to put it in a different lens, given this is a narrow scope of data that doesn't do much to support the vague idea of a "diversity initiative" — perhaps the better approach would be anonymizing resumes during the initial outreach process?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#409

Post by anonymouskimmer »

goatlover wrote: post #365
avip wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also funny to use the term "Asian". I'm also "Asian" (from Israel). There are hundreds of completely non-related ethnical groups in this vast continent.

Yeah, and what do you call a white Siberian? A large part of Russia is in Asia as well. Asia must have the most ethnic groups, along with the largest population, but somehow they're all one race to the West.

You call a white Siberian a Russian, and Russia wasn't considered part of the orient by US immigration law back in the day.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#410

Post by mc32 »

The5thElephant wrote: post #357
dbrueck wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :) Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had: - online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked…

Sure, virulent about everything that differed from the "engineering norm". How often were comments made mocking, stereotyping, or denigrating whiteness and white people? I can tell you not nearly as many as were made punching down at everyone else, and not nearly as harsh or gross. The argument isn't that there was no good to be had from those communities, it's that you can't dismiss or ignore the bad that they put o…

I would not disagree, but wouldn't that follow the demographics of the population to a big extent? If we examine other communities in other languages, what were their dispositions, who did they target or not target? Did blondes target blondes or non-blondes, etc.

In other words did it or does it show disproportionality? If it's disproportional then that indicates it's outside the global norm. The above does not mean the global norm is an acceptable norm but helps calibrate and figure out how good or bad things were or are.

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