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Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

theintercept.com

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Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#401

Post by saeranv »

zeepzeep wrote: post #251
hef19898 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything at Amazon is a road between software engineers and warehouse workers, because everything SEs at Amazon (with the exception of AWS) are doing is serving its eCommerce business. And that eCommerce business is riding on the back of warehouse workers.

It's weird how the hard working people that don't like their job get paid close to nothing and the software people enjoying their jobs get rich. I'm lucky that I could turn my hobby into a well paying profession, but it's kinda weird...

One of the more compelling framings for democratic socialism to me, is the idea of taking profits from companies and using it to radically raise wages of people with "undesirable" jobs: janitors, garbage-men, warehouse workers. There's no market pressure to do so (not without unions!) but can be regulated.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#402

Post by deltaonefour »

notch656a wrote: post #283
k0k0r0 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mostly private teacher of mathematics with 7 to 10 years experience for both, children at schools and adults at university, and both, individuals and groups, and both, those who struggle and those who do not, I'd like to share my narrow experience and disagree. Most people I worked with struggled with something entirely different than the actual content they are trying or forced to learn. I am certain the bigges…

Appreciate your insight. I believe you're speaking accurately from your own experiences, but I do have another anecdotal countering viewpoint. Like many on HN I went to a top engineering school. there I saw about 2/3 of my colleagues drop out within the first two years. At least half of them worked tirelessly and efficiently to pursue their goal, and still failed. This was a large public school that will admit basica…

Engineering programs especially in top schools are way too hard for what's required to learn programming. And by top school I mean a top school that admits less than 10% of applicants. These programs are way more challenging than normal. Failing one of these programs does not mean you can program.

Also when I say anyone can do it, I mean anyone with around an average IQ or above. Obviously if you're mentally challenged it's a different story. Obviously new born babies don't have the IQ to learn programming.

I've went to schools where they admit anyone with a pulse and I've also been to actual top schools that are highly selective. I can tell you these programs that admit anyone feel significantly easier because they are. Doing well in one of these schools is not an achievement. I remember coming out top of the class at these schools simply studying for a test the night before.

But the reasoning as to why people fail in these "easy" schools is not what you think. It's exactly what the other replier said but more. Learning programming is not easy, and many people don't have the discipline or the study habits necessary to achieve it in a class room environment as well. They may look like they're studying hard... but a good number them aren't doing the necessary studying to succeed. They may not even be interested in programming. But make no mistake, if you make the curriculum longer and easier or if these people spend the time to grind, most people will succeed in learning programming.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#403

Post by not2b »

awb wrote: post #155
not2b wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like it went further than just a brainstorming session, because a list of words and phrases to be blocked was assembled and this is what leaked. It isn't clear whether or not they would have proceeded if there hadn't been a leak.

> It isn't clear whether or not they would have proceeded if there hadn't been a leak. Right, just many folks on this thread like OC insinuating that it's already been built. I think asking why this idea got as far as it did is a valid question. I mean creating an app and filtering for profanity is standard. But then who hijacked the list and added pretty benign terms?

Those aren't benign terms, because that kind of filtering might violate labor relations laws in the US, depending on the details.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#404

Post by kennywinker »

colanderman wrote: post #389
kennywinker wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then some dev can accidentally roll back the changes as part of a bug fix. Actually we’re having problems with the whole filtering system, it turns out it relies on a library that has some security vulnerabilities and it’s no longer operational. Or if you must, wait until it breaks on its own, and then refuse to fix it. “Suppressing labour organizing isn’t part of my job description” I.e. Grow a spine and stand u…

Why assume this list is hardcoded? It's possible/likely it's controlled by an API (ultimately through a web frontend) and stored on a machine devs don't even have permission to access... that's pretty par for the course for Amazon. The person who coded that functionality, and the person who has credentials to edit the list are likely not one in the same. (The exception would be, when the person who coded the API goes…

You’re right - diffusion of responsibility and technological layering / obfuscation is a great way to avoid making anybody feel bad about doing something bad. It’s quite possible that this was done in a clever way that avoided anyone implementing anything they felt bad about. But ultimately, you can’t “just doing my job” or “i didn’t know it would be used that way” your way out of the harm your job does - it’s your responsibility to notice and act, preferably proactively, but there’s always retroactively.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#405

Post by Firmwarrior »

notch656a wrote: post #283
k0k0r0 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mostly private teacher of mathematics with 7 to 10 years experience for both, children at schools and adults at university, and both, individuals and groups, and both, those who struggle and those who do not, I'd like to share my narrow experience and disagree. Most people I worked with struggled with something entirely different than the actual content they are trying or forced to learn. I am certain the bigges…

Appreciate your insight. I believe you're speaking accurately from your own experiences, but I do have another anecdotal countering viewpoint. Like many on HN I went to a top engineering school. there I saw about 2/3 of my colleagues drop out within the first two years. At least half of them worked tirelessly and efficiently to pursue their goal, and still failed. This was a large public school that will admit basica…

This was my experience as well. Another interesting point here is that a top programmer can singlehandedly do tasks that would take a dozen or a hundred regular programmers working together.

I'm confident that if you took a super-rare race condition in a web service and set me to figuring it out in parallel with a team of a few dozen random web coders off Reddit, I'd figure it out first

With factors like that at play you really can't commoditize software engineering. If all the local companies decided to put the squeeze on workers, new companies would spring up, poach the best workers, and crush the old companies. It's happened before, it's happening now, and it'll happen again.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#406

Post by bb88 »

weezin wrote: post #130
bb88 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between not knowing what your are supposed to be doing during a tornado in your home, and what you're supposed to do in an Amazon warehouse. In Illinois, commercial warehouses aren't required to have tornado shelters. If you grow up in Illinois or anywhere around the midwest, there's a high likelihood you've been through a tornado drill in your childhood.

Well they did have a shelter area. My point was the people that followed the tragedy with horrible tornado advice in order to score political points.

But was it broadcasted to the workers when the tornado warning happened?

Site safety plans typically include things about tornado warnings particularly in Illinois, where tornados are common. It's also common to have a site wide announcement system in case of fire or tornado warnings instructing people where to go and what to do.

Site safety plans typically exist to prevent lawsuits in the first place.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#407

Post by deltaonefour »

ngc248 wrote: post #296
deltaonefour wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Not only can anyone program. But anyone can do surgery, become a fighter pilot and become a barrister. It's the same thing as how anyone can learn mathematics, algebra, biology and any of the typical subjects you learn at school. You struggle with deep learning only because it's a paradigm shift. It's too different from traditional programming so the initial learning curve makes it seem like you're incapabl…

aptitude is a real thing and interest is another thing. Then there are other externalities like access to resource etc. Not everyone can do everything, maybe due to lack of aptitude or interest. So in essence, "anyone can do anything" is just an empty feel good mantra

No, not anyone can do anything. I never said that.

I said anyone can master the subjects mentioned above. Including programming.

These subjects are so easy that anyone can do it.

If I said anyone can master chess and play it on the level of a grandmaster, I'd be wrong. But for just learning to be an adequate programmer or playing chess adequately... anyone can do it.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#408

Post by deltaonefour »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #405
notch656a wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate your insight. I believe you're speaking accurately from your own experiences, but I do have another anecdotal countering viewpoint. Like many on HN I went to a top engineering school. there I saw about 2/3 of my colleagues drop out within the first two years. At least half of them worked tirelessly and efficiently to pursue their goal, and still failed. This was a large public school that will admit basica…

This was my experience as well. Another interesting point here is that a top programmer can singlehandedly do tasks that would take a dozen or a hundred regular programmers working together. I'm confident that if you took a super-rare race condition in a web service and set me to figuring it out in parallel with a team of a few dozen random web coders off Reddit, I'd figure it out first With factors like that at play…

I'm saying anyone can become a "reddit web coder."

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#409

Post by notch656a »

deltaonefour wrote: post #402
notch656a wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate your insight. I believe you're speaking accurately from your own experiences, but I do have another anecdotal countering viewpoint. Like many on HN I went to a top engineering school. there I saw about 2/3 of my colleagues drop out within the first two years. At least half of them worked tirelessly and efficiently to pursue their goal, and still failed. This was a large public school that will admit basica…

Engineering programs especially in top schools are way too hard for what's required to learn programming. And by top school I mean a top school that admits less than 10% of applicants. These programs are way more challenging than normal. Failing one of these programs does not mean you can program. Also when I say anyone can do it, I mean anyone with around an average IQ or above. Obviously if you're mentally challeng…

>I've went to schools where they admit anyone with a pulse and I've also been to actual top schools that are highly selective. I can tell you these programs that admit anyone feel significantly easier because they are. Doing well in one of these schools is not an achievement. I remember coming out top of the class at these schools simply studying for a test the night before.

Lol K bro, I didn't say this to brag, I said it because of what I witnessed. I don't think being good at engineering school is an 'achievement' or a sign of superiority, I just think it means you may be wired differently than some other people -- that's it. The school in question I'm referring to is ranked in the top 10 of US engineering programs, with much lower grade inflation than many of the private schools, and no one takes you seriously when you say this school is 'easier.' I lived with several of these people who were trying, and they were doing everything right and taking the necessary steps, with full family support, and working tirelessly and still just couldn't cut it. One of them I spent time with daily ended up becoming a doctor instead; these were not dumb or undisciplined people.

Many of the more 'highly selective' private programs are actually easier because they milk you dry in tuition and they want to keep the dollars flowing, so they will coddle you along.

Believe it or not there are public schools that will take essentially anyone with a pulse into engineering, and a handful of the more challenging and highly ranked engineering programs are included. These are not 'easy' programs, and attrition rates far exceed other programs at the same university. Personally I approve of this approach because it allows anyone to try their hand rather than depending on BS criteria like standardized testing or high school performance, or other dumb factors like whether your parents had the strings to pull in a non-profit to make you look like mother teresa. The kind of person who succeeds at engineering is often not the kind who has an impressive background coming out of highschool.

>I remember coming out top of the class at these schools simply studying for a test the night before

The number of people who received, or would be able to receive, an ABET accredited engineering degree at the top of their class from any of say the top dozen engineering schools while simply 'studying for a test the night before' is a much rarer trait than you think. Either you're unaware of your exceptional aptitude or you were blind to your surroundings.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#410

Post by robertlagrant »

grapeskin wrote: post #353
robertlagrant wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be silly; it's not at the cost of the whole world. We are still in a pandemic where one of the biggest reasons people could isolate for as long as they did was big tech.

Quarantines have existed for a long time. Countries locked down for longer. The most important thing holding the world together was the people out there risking infection to deliver things to people staying at home. The biggest difference between the 90s and 2020s is that people are doing it by pressing a button on their phone instead of pressing a button on their computer or making a call on their phone, and loads m…

> Quarantines have existed for a long time. Countries locked down for longer.

Can you give some examples?

The rest of your analysis seems incomplete. Some examples:

Zoom, Slack Facebook and WhatsApp able to keep professional, personal and family relationships alive was essential to so much continuing to function, allowing a vast number of employees to shift to online working. One notable point (of thousands) here is that while healthcare waiting lists got longer, many consultations that could be done over video, a thing never thought feasible before, meaning more isolation possibilities for vulnerable patients (and clinical staff).

Having online shops able to update listings in seconds, rather than your example of the 90s where catalogues would be sent out every six months with new stock for you to phone up and buy, or rather, not be able to get through to, was also awesome. Modern logistics means packages and returns can be done incredibly easily and fitted into your day, rather than spending ages on the phone with a human operator.

Uber and derivatives meant that the increased load of shutting down public transport could be transferred onto a dynamic fleet of private citizens' cars, and the traditional taxi firms also didn't require scaling human operators to book, and Google Maps powered the routing for those drivers.

And the rise of cloud infrastructure has meant in general that many services, government and private, have sprung into being in record time.

And those are just the first examples that occur to me.

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