Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#401

Post by SyzygistSix » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #367

quadrifoliate wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It consisted of going to some Indian dude’s house for an hour every Saturday for a summer. If that’s a game changer what does that say about American K-8 math education? Ironically, this is scouting round a theory I have long espoused – the failure of American K-8 math education has nothing to do with teaching , and everything to do with culture . Sure, going to some Indian dude's house every Saturday for a summer…

I always wondered if these parents raising test ninjas are doing their kids favors. We have google now. I don't need to know the capital of Ukraine - I can just google it. STEM is great to study, but most of the academics in it after 8th grade are not particularity useful. I still haven't been asked to solve a differential equation at work. I have never been asked what school I went to during an interview (i wished t…

Agreed. And test taking may not be the best criteria to judge people by.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#402

Post by someguydave » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

AniseAbyss wrote: post #368

lukas099 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is creating a purely merit-based institution really an identity policy though? I see it as an identity-blind policy, unless you define identity to include merit.

The fallacy of meritocracy. You stand on the shoulders of your parents. If you come from a family of crackheads on the bad side of the rail tracks you already lost the race long before 8th grade.

what is the fallacy exactly?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#403

Post by twofornone » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #390

raxxorrax wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is simply a bad mechanism and argument to put injustices of the past on the shoulders of new generations, especially with goals defined in such a blurry manner. On the contrary, the best remedy is to treat people as equals. That isn't unpractical realism, nothing else is required. Of course some will have a huge head start and culture towards education is a very important factor. But you can shelve the false justi…

The injustices of the present need to be solved still. In America the way schools are funded in many states is such an obvious shorthand for racist school funding there isn't a level playing field.

This isn't true. Underfunding is not the issue with underperforming schools in the US. If you want to improve outcomes in inner city schools you need to fix the broken local culture first, but it's sort of chicken and egg.

http://thinkaboutnow.com/2016/03/debunking-the-underfunded-p...

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#404

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #200

root_axis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percen…

> It's unfortunate that a quality education is a finite pie. Good that it's not then? With modern technology, one can get started on ultra cheap automated courses (not necessarily just static lectures, can be interactive/VR experience like good computer games), coupled with one on one help from paid and volunteer tutors around the world. Than those who show potential can in due time be given access to expensive resea…

This is why I don't understand. The logistics of education are cheaper than ever, almost free. Having a personal mentor is of course far more efficient, but that isn't the reality of modern education anyway.

What elite institutions offer is mainly connections and access directly into the pipeline of companies in a respective field.

There is some benefit to have elite institutions because proximity of highly educated people can spawn a lot of innovation, but a successful education system needs to be broad.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#405

Post by jason-phillips » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #367

quadrifoliate wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It consisted of going to some Indian dude’s house for an hour every Saturday for a summer. If that’s a game changer what does that say about American K-8 math education? Ironically, this is scouting round a theory I have long espoused – the failure of American K-8 math education has nothing to do with teaching , and everything to do with culture . Sure, going to some Indian dude's house every Saturday for a summer…

I always wondered if these parents raising test ninjas are doing their kids favors. We have google now. I don't need to know the capital of Ukraine - I can just google it. STEM is great to study, but most of the academics in it after 8th grade are not particularity useful. I still haven't been asked to solve a differential equation at work. I have never been asked what school I went to during an interview (i wished t…

> I can just google it. STEM is great to study, but most of the academics in it after 8th grade are not particularity useful.

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. Understanding the basics of calculus allows one to grok the underlying principles of the universe.

I studied hard science (geology) which included quite a bit of chemistry and physics, which helped me when buying a house (in a location not prone to natural disasters) and remodeling my house (understanding the physics in load-bearing walls and behavior of water in structures).

I also majored in English literature, studying overseas, which trained me to become a much better writer than I otherwise would have been.

Saying "just Google it" shows a very shallow understanding of applied theory which makes one a much better problem-solver, imo.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#406

Post by artificial » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

psyc wrote: post #139

tyjen wrote: post #80

I'm a confused by the equity claim to justify discriminatory behavior with what seems like heavy emphasis on race. It seems difficult to achieve equity without transparent, and standardized methods emphasizing a holistic assessment covering visible and invisible, immutable and mutable characteristics--each of which impact individual outcomes. I understand that tackling overrepresentation and underrepresentation is im…

It’s all so depressingly primitive. Half of me wants to protest that surely we’re more enlightened than this in current year. The other half would settle for everyone else admitting that yes we are definitely still this backwards.

We are chimps with electricity and gunpowder.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#407

Post by SyzygistSix » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

franklampard wrote: post #394

ransom1538 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wondered if these parents raising test ninjas are doing their kids favors. We have google now. I don't need to know the capital of Ukraine - I can just google it. STEM is great to study, but most of the academics in it after 8th grade are not particularity useful. I still haven't been asked to solve a differential equation at work. I have never been asked what school I went to during an interview (i wished t…

pretty sure the test ninjas build Google

At this point, that could either be advocating in their favor or not so much.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#408

Post by DebtDeflation » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

3qJD3eCM wrote: post #240

jpgvm wrote: post #209

So they should. Anything other than an objective standardized test is just asking for bias. Australia gets by just fine with standardized testing only, don't see why America can't as well. If you make the cut then you can qualify for scholarships if you are disadvantaged because of means, etc. To be fair though Australia is overall more equal in terms of schooling outcomes but to pretend that it's a university/colleg…

So, I was involved with admissions in a selective graduate program. Not undergraduate but I saw some of the same issues arise. I have a lot of thoughts about this all. The end result of a lot of this, my guess, is that schools will drop standardized tests as admission requirements. That's what happened at my institution. Standardized tests are also biased. They are definitely biased toward individuals who are represe…

>All the other things -- grades, experiences, and so forth -- are also biased in their own way, but in ways that counter the bias of tests.

I was under the impression that the main variable we were trying to predict in admissions was collegiate academic performance.

High school grades are highly correlated with collegiate academic performance. High school grades + standardized test scores taken together are even more correlated.

This study:

https://50.cresst.org/2020/05/20/cresst-recommendation-for-n...

Found that eliminating standardized tests in admissions actually benefited Asian applicants while hurting Black applicants.

No objective admissions metric will ever be perfect, but grades and standardized test scores are fairly good. I wonder how long until there's a push to eliminate high school grades as an admissions metric.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#409

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #395

It seems ridiculous that we are denying opportunities to people who have worked hard and done well on the objective measures. Especially when it comes to public schools, the opportunities should be equal. Set objective criteria for acceptance, advanced placement, etc. Then stick to it. We shouldn't be holding opportunities away from someone because if their heritage, or someone else's heritage. We have a STEM academy…

Set objective criteria for acceptance, advanced placement, etc. Then stick to it. We shouldn't be holding opportunities away from someone because if their heritage, or someone else's heritage.

The new criteria were objective, just different. They dropped the admissions test, which was a sort of SAT-lite exam, instead relying more on previous academic achievement.

The impact of this was brining women to near parity in the most recent class. From an economic standpoint, the incoming class is 25% poor vs past classes around 1%. Black students went from 1% to 7%. And Hispanic from 3% to 11%. And bringing Asians from ~70% of the class to 54% of the most recent class (where they make up 20% of the county population).

All this without much impact on the average GPA of the incoming class. My take is the combination of entrance exam and exam fees were hurdles to other students.

It's clear the previous entrance standards weren't working, with Asians and rich students massively over-represented.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#410

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #390

raxxorrax wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is simply a bad mechanism and argument to put injustices of the past on the shoulders of new generations, especially with goals defined in such a blurry manner. On the contrary, the best remedy is to treat people as equals. That isn't unpractical realism, nothing else is required. Of course some will have a huge head start and culture towards education is a very important factor. But you can shelve the false justi…

The injustices of the present need to be solved still. In America the way schools are funded in many states is such an obvious shorthand for racist school funding there isn't a level playing field.

I am fully on point with having more funding in education, it will always be a good investment and doesn't need racial discrimination.